remove pet perma skill loss

[bane]

You are doing something wrong then. And to point out the obvious fact you are ignoring: Tard and several others macroed up the exp on their talisman / relics over night. Not something you can do w/ a pet.

Unless there is a way around the cool down timer it is simple math and yes I macroed my Quench to level 5 so far using released lava lizards attacking my dexxer where they couldn't reach him (firebreath is only attack they can use).

Here is the math:

• At level 5 Quench cool down before next activation is possible is 70 seconds.
• To go from level 5 to level 6 takes 1600 activations

[(70 seconds * 1600 activations)/(60 seconds/minute)]/(60 minutes/hour) = 31.11 hours

I am not discounting that there may have been a bug early on but from my experience macroing my relic up it appears to be closed now. So yes it takes far far longer than 80 hours. Remedy takes a similar amount of time as well. Additionally I get about 200xp per dragon I kill, I don't get 1 to 1 exp on damage for some reason, to level the talisman from level 4 to 5 it takes 64k experience. So that is 320 dragons for one level of the defense dexxer talisman with me as the meat shield. If I am doing something wrong I would really appreciate if someone could teach me the right way. It would save me a ton of time fully leveling this thing.

EDIT: it is 320 dragons not 3200 duh. wrote that too fast lol.

EDIT2: Macroing up exp (not leveling relics) on a dexxer talisman is illegal now I believe. Also there is cap on the amount of experience one monster can give you now. Essentially I believe they closed down most if not all the loopholes that may have been present earlier. You may have been right at one point but you are very wrong about the current state of things.

 

[Duck Face]

Unless there is a way around the cool down timer it is simple math and yes I macroed my Quench to level 5 so far using released lava lizards attacking my dexxer where they couldn't reach him (firebreath is only attack they can use).

Here is the math:

• At level 5 Quench cool down before next activation is possible is 70 seconds.
• To go from level 5 to level 6 takes 1600 activations

[(70 seconds * 1600 activations)/(60 seconds/minute)]/(60 minutes/hour) = 31.11 hours

I am not discounting that there may have been a bug early on but from my experience macroing my relic up it appears to be closed now. So yes it takes far far longer than 80 hours. Remedy takes a similar amount of time as well. Additionally I get about 200xp per dragon I kill, I don't get 1 to 1 exp on damage for some reason, to level the talisman from level 4 to 5 it takes 64k experience. So that is 320 dragons for one level of the defense dexxer talisman with me as the meat shield. If I am doing something wrong I would really appreciate if someone could teach me the right way. It would save me a ton of time fully leveling this thing.

EDIT: it is 320 dragons not 3200 duh. wrote that too fast lol.

EDIT2: Macroing up exp (not leveling relics) on a dexxer talisman is illegal now (afk farming). Also there is cap on the amount of experience one monster can give you now. Essentially I believe they closed down most if not all the loopholes that may have been present earlier. You may have been right at one point but you are very wrong about the current state of things.

Maybe I'll look into starting a defense talisman soon, and showing you the errors of your training methods . Although, if your intentions are to win events, that is the worst talisman you could choose.

I can tell you the following from my experience:

• A level 5 beserker can out damage the best meta pet at any champ/event, I know this because I have one. It does not take anywhere near the 100s of hours it takes to prep the tamer/pet to get on an even level w/ a beserker build if you know what you are doing. If I recall correctly, level 5 was reached in 2-3 days of farming ogre lords.
• A meta mage is about 80-100 hours to level 10 talisman. I have one, so I would know. I killed about 90k silver worth of mobs from level 4 to 10.
• Leveling the relics on a talisman doesn't add to the effort it simply adds to the time you sit afk and macro.
• Meta pets are much more difficult / time consuming to level. I have a level 7 dragon, which I trained from an egg, and a level 5 steed also trained from an egg.

 

[bane]

Maybe I'll look into starting a defense talisman soon, and showing you the errors of your training methods . Although, if your intentions are to win events, that is the worst talisman you could choose.

I can tell you the following from my experience:

• A level 5 beserker can out damage the best meta pet at any champ/event, I know this because I have one. It does not take anywhere near the 100s of hours it takes to prep the tamer/pet to get on an even level w/ a beserker build if you know what you are doing. If I recall correctly, level 5 was reached in 2-3 days of farming ogre lords.
• A meta mage is about 80-100 hours to level 10 talisman. I have one, so I would know. I killed about 90k silver worth of mobs from level 4 to 10.
• Leveling the relics on a talisman doesn't add to the effort it simply adds to the time you sit afk and macro.
• Meta pets are much more difficult / time consuming to level. I have a level 7 dragon, which I trained from an egg, and a level 5 steed also trained from an egg.

Not a min/maxer. I decided on the defense relic based on how I wanted to build my dexxer (super tanky) not to win events.

You said it took less than 80 hours to fully level talisman dexxer. So even in your examples above, using your numbers it takes more time.

Berserker Example
Two days assuming power leveling 16 hours a day is 32 hours to get to level 5. Getting to level 5 represents about 1/5 of the total exp needed to get to level 10 talisman, if I remember correctly, so you are looking at 160 hours of total play time to level the talisman from level 1 to 10. This is not counting leveling all the relics; some of which will level as you level the talisman. Because of damage output I would fully expect a berserker to level much much faster than a defense dexxer.

Meta Mage Example
90k worth of silver with the best silver dropping monster (daemon) dropping 30 silver. So 3k Daemons to get level 10 Meta Mage. Assuming you can kill a daemon every 2 minutes continuously which would need to include restocking, meditating, other people hunting in the same place, and waiting for respawn (even if you recall around you will kill them faster than they respawn) then yes you can get from level 1 to 10 in exactly 100 hours without counting any macroing at the end to finish leveling your relics.

Also as far as difficulty; leveling anything isn't difficult it just takes time. I am not saying that a talisman dexxer takes as long as a meta pet or that it is a comparable cost to fully equiping a meta pet (reread my posts please). But it is crazy to say that you will be done in less than 80 hours played currently on a defense, berserker, or mage talisman. Using your numbers it takes longer to level just the talisman which doesn't count any relics.

I look forward to you leveling a defense talisman so you can show me how you get around the math on the relic cool down timers. If you can show me how to fully level this talisman and relics in less than 100 hours I will make a post in each of the main forums praising your superior PvM ability.

EDIT: While that last paragraph is super snarky and sarcastic; I am 100% serious about the "bet". There really is no downside for you and it is a bet I would really like to lose. You would need to share all your godly methods of course so I could independently verify before I publicly shame myself.

#ItsScience

 

[halygon]

So does this seem balanced?

Seems fine.

This whole argument is bad though - You cannot compare pk stat loss to pet skill loss. They are apples and oranges. In one case a player is completely taken out of gameplay, where the other encourages gameplay. Having a couple points down on all pet skills does not prevent you from using that pet effectively at all.

 

[Lexington]

Seems fine.

This whole argument is bad though - You cannot compare pk stat loss to pet skill loss. They are apples and oranges. In one case a player is completely taken out of gameplay, where the other encourages gameplay. Having a couple points down on all pet skills does not prevent you from using that pet effectively at all.

Do you play UOF.... if so what template do you play?

 

[halygon]

Do you play UOF.... if so what template do you play?

I play nothing but UOF. Templates -Everything except tamer, which I had and used till I deleted the character.

Oh I don't have a fisher either - too boring.

Ever read the wiki? If so, which pvm article did I write that you like the best?

 

[Lexington]

I play nothing but UOF. Templates -Everything except tamer, which I had and used till I deleted the character.

Oh I don't have a fisher either - too boring.

Ever read the wiki? If so, which pvm article did I write that you like the best?

Did you delete your tamer before or after the skill loss changes were implemented?

 

[Duck Face]

Seems fine.

This whole argument is bad though - You cannot compare pk stat loss to pet skill loss. They are apples and oranges. In one case a player is completely taken out of gameplay, where the other encourages gameplay. Having a couple points down on all pet skills does not prevent you from using that pet effectively at all.

Stat loss for a red doesn't take them out of play. Every time I stat someone and say something in irc I get a response similar to "So what, I have 8 reds".

You believe that someone who is willing to spend the time training a taming character and meta pets should be OK with handicapped pets just because it seems OK to people who don't play that template? What makes it OK? Someone spends hundreds of hours to get to a point in the game to have someone grief them, then they are told: It seems OK, just spend another 30-40 hours and you can be back where you were.

Every other build has an option to buy out their loss either through the bounty system or the talisman statue. Why do you believe a tamer shouldn't have that as an option? I haven't seen a good argument against removing stat loss for pets or against having an option to buy out of stat loss for pets.

 

[Lexington]

I haven't seen a good argument against removing stat loss for pets or against having an option to buy out of stat loss for pets.

That's because there isn't one... What we have is people that either don't play or play templates other then the one in question making all the rules. Unfortunately they feel it's balanced... but it's not!

I can't understand why they won't even address the huge griefing issue they created? Maybe they are worst offenders *points finger around the room*

 

[Duck Face]

Not a min/maxer. I decided on the defense relic based on how I wanted to build my dexxer (super tanky) not to win events.

You said it took less than 80 hours to fully level talisman dexxer. So even in your examples above, using your numbers it takes more time.

Berserker Example
Two days assuming power leveling 16 hours a day is 32 hours to get to level 5. Getting to level 5 represents about 1/5 of the total exp needed to get to level 10 talisman, if I remember correctly, so you are looking at 160 hours of total play time to level the talisman from level 1 to 10. This is not counting leveling all the relics; some of which will level as you level the talisman. Because of damage output I would fully expect a berserker to level much much faster than a defense dexxer.

Meta Mage Example
90k worth of silver with the best silver dropping monster (daemon) dropping 30 silver. So 3k Daemons to get level 10 Meta Mage. Assuming you can kill a daemon every 2 minutes continuously which would need to include restocking, meditating, other people hunting in the same place, and waiting for respawn (even if you recall around you will kill them faster than they respawn) then yes you can get from level 1 to 10 in exactly 100 hours without counting any macroing at the end to finish leveling your relics.

Also as far as difficulty; leveling anything isn't difficult it just takes time. I am not saying that a talisman dexxer takes as long as a meta pet or that it is a comparable cost to fully equiping a meta pet (reread my posts please). But it is crazy to say that you will be done in less than 80 hours played currently on a defense, berserker, or mage talisman. Using your numbers it takes longer to level just the talisman which doesn't count any relics.

I look forward to you leveling a defense talisman so you can show me how you get around the math on the relic cool down timers. If you can show me how to fully level this talisman and relics in less than 100 hours I will make a post in each of the main forums praising your superior PvM ability.

EDIT: While that last paragraph is super snarky and sarcastic; I am 100% serious about the "bet". There really is no downside for you and it is a bet I would really like to lose. You would need to share all your godly methods of course so I could independently verify before I publicly shame myself.

#ItsScience

Sorry buddy I don't play 16 hours a day... But, I have leveled more meta things in this game than most, and I am familiar with the time and efforts required for them. I always referred to the time leveling as the talisman so, go back and tell me where I said the talisman + the relics, or even mentioned the relics for the pets.

The numbers you chose are terrible on the daemon example. I killed a daemon in 2-3 hits which maybe takes 10-12 seconds. With several spawns I went basically non stop, other than to restock and drop off gold. If it takes you 2 mins to kill a daemon, that could be the reason you think it takes so long to level the talisman. I'd be generous and bump it up to 30 seconds per daemon if you want to include the time it may take to run a few tiles in the case a daemon isn't on the tile you recall in to. Just a tip in case you didn't know, you should wear slayer armor and use a slayer weapon / spell book.

Every relic for the talisman can be leveled w/ a macro 100% afk so that time is not considered part of the effort. imo, The same goes for the pet relics, even though they would be much more difficult to macro up.

However, If you want to believe you have an equal burden trying to level your defense talisman relics as someone who is leveling a meta pet w/ relics, consider this: I placed the gold relic on my steed first, as soon as it could go on. My steed is close to the final stage and the gold relic has gotten a little past half way through 8. It is pretty easy to see that it takes longer to level the one relic than the entire leveling process of the steed. The final relic doesn't go on until the last stage of the pet, so buckle up because you have to spend the same amount of time you just did to level the steed, but this time it will be just for leveling the last relic. Now for the beserker and meta mage, I was able to macro each relic to max in less than a week, typically just running the macro when I was afk / sleeping. There is no way you can do the same w/ a pet unless you run a macro 24/7, keeping the pet and the pet's target alive the entire time.

ps. try to get some experience in the matter before getting so defensive about a topic. You are one sided and biased here, whereas I have experienced leveling 4 of the 5 types of metas/talismans. I'm not saying the leveling is quick for any of the talismans, but they are all much quicker than building up a tamer and the meta pets.

 

[halygon]

Did you delete your tamer before or after the skill loss changes were implemented?

Before but I played with the same skill loss (-1.0 for all skills) on uoforever for years, and there skill gains are slower than here.. Actually impossibly slow. How UOF is right now is a cakewalk compared to that - pet training wise.

 

[halygon]

Stat loss for a red doesn't take them out of play. Every time I stat someone and say something in irc I get a response similar to "So what, I have 8 reds".

You believe that someone who is willing to spend the time training a taming character and meta pets should be OK with handicapped pets just because it seems OK to people who don't play that template? What makes it OK? Someone spends hundreds of hours to get to a point in the game to have someone grief them, then they are told: It seems OK, just spend another 30-40 hours and you can be back where you were.

Every other build has an option to buy out their loss either through the bounty system or the talisman statue. Why do you believe a tamer shouldn't have that as an option? I haven't seen a good argument against removing stat loss for pets or against having an option to buy out of stat loss for pets.

You have a good point that pks probably have more pks than someone would have tamers, but as a tamer, you can have multiple pets, so if you somehow need your pet to be 6x instead of 99.0x6, then you can grab another pet until you train that one pet back up just as a red would grab another char. Still, apples and oranges and -1.0 to all skills is hardly a handicap to gameplay.

 

[Duck Face]

You have a good point that pks probably have more pks than someone would have tamers, but as a tamer, you can have multiple pets, so if you somehow need your pet to be 6x instead of 99.0x6, then you can grab another pet until you train that one pet back up just as a red would grab another char. Still, apples and oranges and -1.0 to all skills is hardly a handicap to gameplay.

You're talking about standard pets. Meta pets do not regain their losses. They are handicap until you put in that 2 mil exp for the reset. Lets apply -1 perma stat to reds when they die since it is hardly a handicap. I'm sure the reds will agree.

 

[Duck Face]

Before but I played with the same skill loss (-1.0 for all skills) on uoforever for years, and there skill gains are slower than here.. Actually impossibly slow. How UOF is right now is a cakewalk compared to that - pet training wise.

A pet that never gains must have the slowest gain rate, right? (Meta Pets)

 

[bane]

...

Seriously you need to work on your reading comprehension. Feel free to look at my entire posting history and tell me where I have ever said leveling a talisman was comparable in anyway to leveling a meta pet. I have come out and said multiple times in this thread that leveling a meta pet takes much more time and cost far more than a dexxer talisman.

You leveled a meta steed to level 5. That tells me you have a much higher tolerance for grinding than most people. Leveling a meta mage from 1-10 probably felt crazy short since in comparison to a meta pet it is much shorter. But just because you sunk a bunch of time once per pet to get them to where they are doesn't mean there shouldn't be any downsides to them. A Level 7 meta is crazy powerful and with that power you get some downsides. Hell it makes you the best farmer template in the game so you shouldn't have a problem farming skill scrolls for the occasional pet death.

As for the 2 minute average on the daemons. That time includes everything during your farming: dropping off gold, restocking, getting pked, multiple people farming the same area, ..etc. It is definitely doable but the only thing I would question is that 3k daemons feels kinda low to go from 1-10 on the talisman. Not sure if the defense talisman is bugged but I get about 80ish exp off each daemon so that would only be 240k exp. For the defense talisman at least that isn't enough to go from 1-10. That's about levels 1-6 for my talisman. I don't have a Meta Mage though so maybe you guys get more exp per daemon.

Lastly there are not many slayer spellbooks on this server. Its not really viable advice for all Meta Mages to get slayer spellbooks because there aren't enough to go around at the moment.

We are waaay off the original topic here but please try to actually read this post.

 

[Tard the Paladin]

You are doing something wrong then. And to point out the obvious fact you are ignoring: Tard and several others macroed up the exp on their talisman / relics over night. Not something you can do w/ a pet.

Wow. You insist on spreading the lie that I macro'd my talisman overnight when I already stated that I didn't. A GM can check my Talisman and confirm that Quench is at level 6. I remember the bug and how it worked but I never used it. I'm not sure if it would have even worked on mine since I already had 3 relics on it at the time. Regardless, a GM never reset my talisman and I never abused the bug. My current Talisman would clearly prove this and I welcome a GM to confirm it.

PS. I didn't even achieve level 10 on the Talisman itself until after I had already joined EQMS. I just recently attained level 10

 

[bane]

Wow. You insist on spreading the lie that I macro'd my talisman overnight when I already stated that I didn't. A GM can check my Talisman and confirm that Quench is at level 6. I remember the bug and how it worked but I never used it. I'm not sure if it would have even worked on mine since I already had 3 relics on it at the time. Regardless, a GM never reset my talisman and I never abused the bug. My current Talisman would clearly prove this and I welcome a GM to confirm it.

PS. I didn't even achieve level 10 on the Talisman itself until after I had already joined EQMS. I just recently attained level 10

Didn't you know @Duck Face has special grinding powers that transcend space and time. Kind of a waste of a super power but YOLO I guess.

 

[Duck Face]

Wow. You insist on spreading the lie that I macro'd my talisman overnight when I already stated that I didn't. A GM can check my Talisman and confirm that Quench is at level 6. I remember the bug and how it worked but I never used it. I'm not sure if it would have even worked on mine since I already had 3 relics on it at the time. Regardless, a GM never reset my talisman and I never abused the bug. My current Talisman would clearly prove this and I welcome a GM to confirm it.

PS. I didn't even achieve level 10 on the Talisman itself until after I had already joined EQMS. I just recently attained level 10

You did macro up xp and relics, I remember you asking for advice on doing so. No point in denying it, there was no rule against it at the time.

 

[Duck Face]

Didn't you know @Duck Face has special grinding powers that transcend space and time. Kind of a waste of a super power but YOLO I guess.

You obviously have some jealousy towards me for some reason. You provided no argument for or against the op's suggestion. You attempt to call me out when you have 0 experience in the subject, while I have more experience than most in this subject.

 

[bane]

You obviously have some jealousy towards me for some reason. You provided no argument for or against the op's suggestion. You attempt to call me out when you have 0 experience in the subject, while I have more experience than most in this subject.

Your time estimate of leveling a dexxer talisman (any of them) from 1-10 in less 80 hours is still highly exaggerated even excluding the relics. It is less of an exaggeration for a meta mage which sounds like it is the fastest to level assuming you have 30 million invested into slayer spellbooks. Which of course 99% of the server does not have access to.

I include the relics because at least for a defense dexxer they are a large time commitment since I effectively lose that account for a few weeks to macro all the relics up. Every server restart (more common these days) I have to go tame more lizards and set him all back up which isn't a huge deal by itself but spread that over weeks of straight afk macroing and it adds up.

So essentially you have no current experience with the defense talisman. Were found to be talking out of you ass about how fast you can currently level the relics for my talisman. Accused Tard of abusing a bug to insta-level his talisman and relics and again were found to be full of crap. I don't think you have any credibility left on this topic.

I never called you out on the Meta Pet stuff but you were wrong on the dexxer talisman stuff. Which is what I was calling you out on. Again you need to work on your reading comprehension.