remove pet perma skill loss

[Messremb]

well it has been a while since i posted on a topic like this but i guess its time to come out of retirement

first off its funny that 2 players with 0 tamer experience on this shard are the most vocal against this. (sorry @Tard the Paladin and @halygon )
but its true you guys have no idea what its like here on tamers.

second comparing tamers to dexers is apples and oranges. there are so many differences and they have different advantages that it is impossible to make a valid comparison. the only thing i will say on the topic of dexers is i would like to see more RDA dexer love, they are pretty useless in most RDAs, and since Bards just got nerfed in RDAs it feels like RDAs are geared towards tamers only now. (but maybe the new RDA changes are addressing that, lets hope)

first off i wanna go back in time to the reason staff gave for putting in pet stat loss. the reasoning was that staff was watching players throw their pets into spawn and then just not care when they died. this was mostly at Champs and was about getting score while using an alt. PVP was not part of the reason pet stat loss was put in (however i do have an idea on how to help with this).

the addition of 1% skill loss, and the decrease from 500% to 150% skill gain was added to make tamers take care of their pets. it should be noted that pets currently gain skill just as fast as players, but without the ability to macro specific spells to gain magery and resist.

all the addition did was encourage players to adopt and even more uncaring play style, now many tamers use a pet till its resist is in the 60s or 70s then trash it for a fresh tame. this means tamers care even less about taking care of their pets. IMO the reason is that it is simply impossible to keep a pet at max skills without spending mils on SSs.

so in a way what was accomplished by the change was the exact opposite of what staff intended.

if staff wants to make tamers care for pets they should do one of the folowing.

Remove pet stat loss on death and SSs on pets, but leave in the dificult training (before pvpers get up in arms wait till you get to the PVP fix) This is my personal choice, it means people must invest time or money into getting a max skill pet but it will be worth it as it will not lose skills constantly.

Return the pet skill training speed back to 500%. this would let tamers have a chance to regain skills. hopefully close to as fast as they lose them. if they are careful.

baisically pets should either be hard to train, or lose skills then they die, but not both. either way it encourages tamers to care for their pets and not simply treat them as disposable.


PVP concerns,

PVPers want to be able to punish players using pets in PVP, and i support this. if you are lame enough to rely on pets in PVP you need a high risk. i suggest that tamers can summon their pets only once every 12 hours without skill loss. if you summon a pet a second time in a 12 hour period it should suffer harsh skill loss, something like 5% maybe. this way PVP tamers will think hard about bringing their pets to fight players. but it also makes it so PVM tamers are not punished.

Meta Pets

you will notice i don't talk about metas in this, that's because they are a moot point with the recent changes, and don't really need anything else.

anyways, another reasoned post, hopefully not falling on deaf ears.

 

[bane]

well it has been a while since i posted on a topic like this but i guess its time to come out of retirement

first off its funny that 2 players with 0 tamer experience on this shard are the most vocal against this. (sorry @Tard the Paladin and @halygon )
but its true you guys have no idea what its like here on tamers.

second comparing tamers to dexers is apples and oranges. there are so many differences and they have different advantages that it is impossible to make a valid comparison. the only thing i will say on the topic of dexers is i would like to see more RDA dexer love, they are pretty useless in most RDAs, and since Bards just got nerfed in RDAs it feels like RDAs are geared towards tamers only now. (but maybe the new RDA changes are addressing that, lets hope)

first off i wanna go back in time to the reason staff gave for putting in pet stat loss. the reasoning was that staff was watching players throw their pets into spawn and then just not care when they died. this was mostly at Champs and was about getting score while using an alt. PVP was not part of the reason pet stat loss was put in (however i do have an idea on how to help with this).

the addition of 1% skill loss, and the decrease from 500% to 150% skill gain was added to make tamers take care of their pets. it should be noted that pets currently gain skill just as fast as players, but without the ability to macro specific spells to gain magery and resist.

all the addition did was encourage players to adopt and even more uncaring play style, now many tamers use a pet till its resist is in the 60s or 70s then trash it for a fresh tame. this means tamers care even less about taking care of their pets. IMO the reason is that it is simply impossible to keep a pet at max skills without spending mils on SSs.

so in a way what was accomplished by the change was the exact opposite of what staff intended.

if staff wants to make tamers care for pets they should do one of the folowing.

Remove pet stat loss on death and SSs on pets, but leave in the dificult training (before pvpers get up in arms wait till you get to the PVP fix) This is my personal choice, it means people must invest time or money into getting a max skill pet but it will be worth it as it will not lose skills constantly.

Return the pet skill training speed back to 500%. this would let tamers have a chance to regain skills. hopefully close to as fast as they lose them. if they are careful.

baisically pets should either be hard to train, or lose skills then they die, but not both. either way it encourages tamers to care for their pets and not simply treat them as disposable.


PVP concerns,

PVPers want to be able to punish players using pets in PVP, and i support this. if you are lame enough to rely on pets in PVP you need a high risk. i suggest that tamers can summon their pets only once every 12 hours without skill loss. if you summon a pet a second time in a 12 hour period it should suffer harsh skill loss, something like 5% maybe. this way PVP tamers will think hard about bringing their pets to fight players. but it also makes it so PVM tamers are not punished.

Meta Pets

you will notice i don't talk about metas in this, that's because they are a moot point with the recent changes, and don't really need anything else.

anyways, another reasoned post, hopefully not falling on deaf ears.

While not explicitly said I am assuming you are thinking that Meta Pets would still have normal stat loss as it exists today? I am completely behind everything you said above if it only applies to normal pets. I think meta pets should still have stat loss since there are two mechanics to restore their skills: skill scrolls and the 2 mil reset. With great power comes great responsibility.

 

[Tard the Paladin]

What I can't understand is why in the hell people keep trying to compare a dexer playstyle to a tamer... the time and gold invested isn't even close.

Tard, I'm not here to make the world all balanced and shit. Some classes are stronger and more valuable than others. That's the way it's supposed to be... and that's why you get to choose your own path. If every class was equal UO would be boring as shit!

To me it seems that you're stuck on this dexer issue and the value of the gear you loose when you die and because of this you feel another template should have equal risk............... Tard you're playing a disposable toon that can be re-made inside a few hours... you can't compare it to a tamer that takes months.


I'm not sure what Halygon is referring to when he says too trammy but removing pet statloss is not being too trammy. In fact it would be a step in the right direction to correcting major griefing problem that it caused.

I respect your opinion and I enjoy hearing different view points when they're explained reasonably like you do. I do disagree with two points that you make.

1) Meta talismans added enough balance
Meta talismans were a great step in the right direction but I believe there should be more content added for dexers. Let me give an example. Tamers recently gained the addition of meta steeds, I think it would be great for dexers to receive an opportunity to work on a meta weapon or meta armor, or perhaps a war mount. Maybe those aren't the best examples but something along those lines would be nice.

2) Not all classes should be equal
I believe that UOF would be even better if players with different play styles could also have similar end game content that tamers currently enjoy. Naturally, I would like to see dexers be the next class that receives more end game content. You mention that dexers are a throw away class and this is true. However, additional end game content could allow dexers to devote similar time, effort, and resources into their character much like a tamer. I've mentioned in other posts that it would be important for all classes to also share the same amount of burden in terms of cost, grind, risk, and reward. What I fervently disagree with is the notion that tamers should be the ultimate character class because that's the way UO is supposed to be. I believe UOF would be even further ahead of the pact if more character classes were strengthened by the ability to further develop their character. There are many players and several different play styles. Letting players pick their favorite class and truly develop it with end game content would be a huge plus for the UOF community.

I have a question for you because I don't dismiss your opinion. Why is it that you think character classes should not be balanced if they are required to put in the same amount of effort to develop? Specifically, how the balance could be applied to typical play styles - warrior, mage, tamer. You mention that its the amount of time that it takes to develop a tamer. That is a very valid point but what if warriors and mages were strengthened but also required the same amount effort?

 

[Messremb]

I respect your opinion and I enjoy hearing different view points when they're explained reasonably like you do. I do disagree with two points that you make.

1) Meta talismans added enough balance
Meta talismans were a great step in the right direction but I believe there should be more content added for dexers. Let me give an example. Tamers recently gained the addition of meta steeds, I think it would be great for dexers to receive an opportunity to work on a meta weapon or meta armor, or perhaps a war mount. Maybe those aren't the best examples but something along those lines would be nice.

2) Not all classes should be equal
I believe that UOF would be even better if players with different play styles could also have similar end game content that tamers currently enjoy. Naturally, I would like to see dexers be the next class that receives more end game content. You mention that dexers are a throw away class and this is true. However, additional end game content could allow dexers to devote similar time, effort, and resources into their character much like a tamer. I've mentioned in other posts that it would be important for all classes to also share the same amount of burden in terms of cost, grind, risk, and reward. What I fervently disagree with is the notion that tamers should be the ultimate character class because that's the way UO is supposed to be. I believe UOF would be even further ahead of the pact if more character classes were strengthened by the ability to further develop their character. There are many players and several different play styles. Letting players pick their favorite class and truly develop it with end game content would be a huge plus for the UOF community.

I have a question for you because I don't dismiss your opinion. Why is it that you think character classes should not be balanced if they are required to put in the same amount of effort to develop? Specifically, how the balance could be applied to typical play styles - warrior, mage, tamer. You mention that its the amount of time that it takes to develop a tamer. That is a very valid point but what if warriors and mages were strengthened but also required the same amount effort?

it would be important for all classes to also share the same amount of burden in terms of cost, grind, risk, and reward

this is never going to be possible, nor should it. Crafters will never be able to farm like tamers, full thief builds should not have the ability to do everything all other classes can. the reason there is a class system is so they can all have different areas they excel in. Tamers are PVM tanks that come with a lot of little grief issues, Dexers are versitile PVM\PVP builds that have very little in the way of issues, other than losing items, Mages suffer in PVM but excel at PVP, crafters cant PVP or PVM but get to stay in guards most the time and make money the hard way. Balance isnt about classes being equal, its about all classes having equal viability in certain areas.

that said im not against aditional content for dexers, but i dont like your idea of Meta weapons\Armor, smells too much like tram to me. i dont think dexers need any more buffs so much as they need locations geared toward them. i would love to see an RDA geared towards dexers, or another champ like the arch demon. or remake one of the current dungeons with anti-tamer\bard MOBs.

either way, your choosing to use a valid request by tamers as a platform to spread your grievances about dexers, and IMO it actually just makes you look petty and upset that you don't have a tamer. if you want more Dexer content stop attacking tamers, and go make some thought out suggestions.

 

[Cack]

it would be important for all classes to also share the same amount of burden in terms of cost, grind, risk, and reward

this is never going to be possible, nor should it. Crafters will never be able to farm like tamers, full thief builds should not have the ability to do everything all other classes can. the reason there is a class system is so they can all have different areas they excel in. Tamers are PVM tanks that come with a lot of little grief issues, Dexers are versitile PVM\PVP builds that have very little in the way of issues, other than losing items, Mages suffer in PVM but excel at PVP, crafters cant PVP or PVM but get to stay in guards most the time and make money the hard way. Balance isnt about classes being equal, its about all classes having equal viability in certain areas.

that said im not against aditional content for dexers, but i dont like your idea of Meta weapons\Armor, smells too much like tram to me. i dont think dexers need any more buffs so much as they need locations geared toward them. i would love to see an RDA geared towards dexers, or another champ like the arch demon. or remake one of the current dungeons with anti-tamer\bard MOBs.

either way, your choosing to use a valid request by tamers as a platform to spread your grievances about dexers, and IMO it actually just makes you look petty and upset that you don't have a tamer. if you want more Dexer content stop attacking tamers, and go make some thought out suggestions.

This dude gets it

 

[Tard the Paladin]

it would be important for all classes to also share the same amount of burden in terms of cost, grind, risk, and reward

this is never going to be possible, nor should it. Crafters will never be able to farm like tamers, full thief builds should not have the ability to do everything all other classes can. the reason there is a class system is so they can all have different areas they excel in. Tamers are PVM tanks that come with a lot of little grief issues, Dexers are versitile PVM\PVP builds that have very little in the way of issues, other than losing items, Mages suffer in PVM but excel at PVP, crafters cant PVP or PVM but get to stay in guards most the time and make money the hard way. Balance isnt about classes being equal, its about all classes having equal viability in certain areas.

that said im not against aditional content for dexers, but i dont like your idea of Meta weapons\Armor, smells too much like tram to me. i dont think dexers need any more buffs so much as they need locations geared toward them. i would love to see an RDA geared towards dexers, or another champ like the arch demon. or remake one of the current dungeons with anti-tamer\bard MOBs.

either way, your choosing to use a valid request by tamers as a platform to spread your grievances about dexers, and IMO it actually just makes you look petty and upset that you don't have a tamer. if you want more Dexer content stop attacking tamers, and go make some thought out suggestions.

Yeah, I can see your point about dexers having more ability to escape mobs and what not. This does cut down on the griefability. However, this is balanced by the fact that tamers have their pets which is a bigger weapon than dexers. The fact that it comes at a cost of mobility is reasonable. Crafters isn't exactly what I had in mind which is why I specified mage, warrior, tamer. These are the classes that typically dungeon crawl.

I don't think that my point looks petty. Its not really a valid point about pet stat loss if tamers are the only build that is going to face no penalty for dying. Nor is it really a valid point that tamers should get the best pvm tool in game and then not have to worry about how they use it.

"that said im not against aditional content for dexers, but i dont like your idea of Meta weapons\Armor, smells too much like tram to me"

That part makes me chuckle. Tamers have the best weapon in game and this thread is advocating that it should be made risk free. And yet more meta content for dexers is too trammy for you? Well at least we know tamers know where to draw the line. Geez.

It seems silly to me that tamers advocate that their class build should be the only end game build and then ask for it to be essentially risk free. That seems like a huge overreach from a group of players who have already been given far more character development and end game content than other players with different play styles. When I state my case you call it petty, I believe obvious would be a more fitting description.

 

[halygon]

I'm at a loss for words that @Messremb thinks I have no tamer experience.

While I don't currently have a tamer, I did at one time - for about a year on uof and many years on other shards.

Because I choose not to play a tamer now doesn't mean I am inexperienced with them. In fact, because I don't currently play one but understand them puts me in a unique position with an unbiased view on the situation.

I like tamers in pvm or in pvp. I like fighting against tamers and I truly have an appreciation for what goes into them. My main source of cash even used to be training pets to 5-6x and selling them.

I understand how it feels to lose skills on my pets that I worked to train up - but I also understand how this balances things and I know how pitifully unappreciated pets were when pet skill loss was .1 and skill gain was much higher than it is now.

 

[Duck Face]

I'm at a loss for words that @Messremb thinks I have no tamer experience.

While I don't currently have a tamer, I did at one time - for about a year on uof and many years on other shards.

Because I choose not to play a tamer now doesn't mean I am inexperienced with them. In fact, because I don't currently play one but understand them puts me in a unique position with an unbiased view on the situation.

I like tamers in pvm or in pvp. I like fighting against tamers and I truly have an appreciation for what goes into them. My main source of cash even used to be training pets to 5-6x and selling them.

I understand how it feels to lose skills on my pets that I worked to train up - but I also understand how this balances things and I know how pitifully unappreciated pets were when pet skill loss was .1 and skill gain was much higher than it is now.

How much meta pet experience do you have though? You know they can't be trained back up right? You have to farm for about 30-40 hours to reset their skills.

 

[Duck Face]

I respect your opinion and I enjoy hearing different view points when they're explained reasonably like you do. I do disagree with two points that you make.

1) Meta talismans added enough balance
Meta talismans were a great step in the right direction but I believe there should be more content added for dexers. Let me give an example. Tamers recently gained the addition of meta steeds, I think it would be great for dexers to receive an opportunity to work on a meta weapon or meta armor, or perhaps a war mount. Maybe those aren't the best examples but something along those lines would be nice.

2) Not all classes should be equal
I believe that UOF would be even better if players with different play styles could also have similar end game content that tamers currently enjoy. Naturally, I would like to see dexers be the next class that receives more end game content. You mention that dexers are a throw away class and this is true. However, additional end game content could allow dexers to devote similar time, effort, and resources into their character much like a tamer. I've mentioned in other posts that it would be important for all classes to also share the same amount of burden in terms of cost, grind, risk, and reward. What I fervently disagree with is the notion that tamers should be the ultimate character class because that's the way UO is supposed to be. I believe UOF would be even further ahead of the pact if more character classes were strengthened by the ability to further develop their character. There are many players and several different play styles. Letting players pick their favorite class and truly develop it with end game content would be a huge plus for the UOF community.

I have a question for you because I don't dismiss your opinion. Why is it that you think character classes should not be balanced if they are required to put in the same amount of effort to develop? Specifically, how the balance could be applied to typical play styles - warrior, mage, tamer. You mention that its the amount of time that it takes to develop a tamer. That is a very valid point but what if warriors and mages were strengthened but also required the same amount effort?

Tard you probably shouldn't mention time or effort. Most people don't know this, but I'm pretty sure he used a bug to level his talisman to 10 over night...

Mages and Dexxers are currently able to compete with any tamer in any champ/invasion and win. Look at the last few invasions, @TheFallen has won a few with his meta dexxer. I have won a few with my meta mage. I can show up to any boss fight and top the scoreboard with my half completed beserker. You know how much it costs to reset the talisman if I die on the meta mage or dexxer? 15k, on the dexxer I would then grab another bronze weapon (another 3k in costs...). I find it odd that you think other builds require higher cost equipment to compete. The relics do the damage, not the equipment. I use the same butler settings for all of my characters.

On the subject of adding in more content for dexxers, I don't see a need for a dexxer meta steed, the tamer meta steed is barely any better than a mare and it loses fire breathe, more of a downgrade in many cases. Maybe adding more relics to vary the builds would be nice though. I am not a fan of everyone having to use the same relics.

 

[Lexington]

Tard you probably shouldn't mention time or effort. Most people don't know this, but I'm pretty sure he used a bug to level his talisman to 10 over night...

His reply was to me... so are you saying I used a bug?

 

[Belge]

Maybe adding more relics to vary the builds would be nice though. I am not a fan of everyone having to use the same relics.

This is a great solutions to change it up a bit! More relics = more diverse builds

 

[Lexington]

I'm at a loss for words that @Messremb thinks I have no tamer experience.

While I don't currently have a tamer, I did at one time - for about a year on uof and many years on other shards.

Because I choose not to play a tamer now doesn't mean I am inexperienced with them. In fact, because I don't currently play one but understand them puts me in a unique position with an unbiased view on the situation.

I like tamers in pvm or in pvp. I like fighting against tamers and I truly have an appreciation for what goes into them. My main source of cash even used to be training pets to 5-6x and selling them.

I understand how it feels to lose skills on my pets that I worked to train up - but I also understand how this balances things and I know how pitifully unappreciated pets were when pet skill loss was .1 and skill gain was much higher than it is now.

So basically you're saying nothing will be changed? We'll like I said doesn't affect me anymore but new players coming to the shard probably wont understand the need, @*$#@ I don't even understand it.

One last thing about misuse cause I think that's what you are saying happened with pets.... UOF has many classes and systems that are misused every single day but it's only being done by a hand full of people... implementing changes like you did here didn't just hurt those people.

 

[Tard the Paladin]

Tard you probably shouldn't mention time or effort. Most people don't know this, but I'm pretty sure he used a bug to level his talisman to 10 over night...

Mages and Dexxers are currently able to compete with any tamer in any champ/invasion and win. Look at the last few invasions, @TheFallen has won a few with his meta dexxer. I have won a few with my meta mage. I can show up to any boss fight and top the scoreboard with my half completed beserker. You know how much it costs to reset the talisman if I die on the meta mage or dexxer? 15k, on the dexxer I would then grab another bronze weapon (another 3k in costs...). I find it odd that you think other builds require higher cost equipment to compete. The relics do the damage, not the equipment. I use the same butler settings for all of my characters.

On the subject of adding in more content for dexxers, I don't see a need for a dexxer meta steed, the tamer meta steed is barely any better than a mare and it loses fire breathe, more of a downgrade in many cases. Maybe adding more relics to vary the builds would be nice though. I am not a fan of everyone having to use the same relics.

That's not very nice, Duck. I didn't use a bug to level my Talisman. I'm guessing that you're thinking about the Quench bug that other LORE members used to get their talismans maxed. Its pretty obvious I didn't use that bug because my quench is still only level 6 and it was somewhat recently that I finally got the Talisman up to level 10. I am STILL in the process of training the talisman the hard way.

I see your point about the meta steed. Like I mentioned maybe that's not the ideal thing to add. The possibility of more relics is neat though. Farewell recoil relic!

 

[halygon]

How much meta pet experience do you have though? You know they can't be trained back up right? You have to farm for about 30-40 hours to reset their skills.

I do know this.

 

[Duck Face]

His reply was to me... so are you saying I used a bug?

I know several people used a bug to level their defense talismans when it first came out. It rolled over the cap per level if you had a certain relic on it. That way, each time it got a little more exp, you gained another level. I'm not 100% on how it worked bc I don't have a defense talisman and never have had one. I'm not sure who all used that method to level it, but I do know some people got it reset to level 2 and others got to keep theirs at level 10. I assumed Tard was one that may have benefited from this bug since he was one of the first to get into the defense talisman.

 

[Duck Face]

I do know this.

So does this seem balanced?

PVM - 30-40 hours of training to get back to where you were before a death.
PVP (reds) - Log into another red until the temp stat goes away in some # of hours.

idk I see it as being a bit lop sided there on the punishment for deaths.

Someone might argue that you can buy skill scrolls for your pet. So can a red if perma stat is introduced. But this also relies on skill scrolls being available when you need them. Anyone can check the sell threads and see that the common skill scrolls required for pets / pvpers are not often available.

imo a solution might be to give the same chance for a tamer to buy back their pets skills just like a red can buy back their head or a meta dexxer / meta mage can buy out their wait time on their talisman.

 

[Guwap]

I know several people used a bug to level their defense talismans when it first came out. It rolled over the cap per level if you had a certain relic on it. That way, each time it got a little more exp, you gained another level. I'm not 100% on how it worked bc I don't have a defense talisman and never have had one. I'm not sure who all used that method to level it, but I do know some people got it reset to level 2 and others got to keep theirs at level 10. I assumed Tard was one that may have benefited from this bug since he was one of the first to get into the defense talisman.

Accusing people of exploiting based on an assumption isn't cool bro.

 

[Duck Face]

Accusing people of exploiting based on an assumption isn't cool bro.

No assumptions were made on there being a bug to level the defense talisman in a few hours. There was, you can ask Eppy. I do recall Tard being in teamspeak when that bug was discovered and he was working on the talisman at that time. Staff knows who they are bc they had to fix their talisman since they couldn't equip additional relics. I also never said tard did so, I said I was "pretty sure" and I still think he may have, but it doesn't matter as the effort to level the talisman vs effort to level a pet is greatly different.

To level a dexxer/mage talisman takes < 80 hours. To level a meta pet takes 120 + hours. To get to 120 taming/Lore probably takes another 100+ hours unless you are skill scrolling it, in which cases it will cost millions. Throw on top of that the cost of powerscrolls for taming and the cost of taming relics. I'm sorry but when someone tries to compare the time/effort required for one of the meta builds vs a meta pet, it just doesn't make sense to think they are anywhere near equal.

 

[bane]

No assumptions were made on there being a bug to level the defense talisman in a few hours. There was, you can ask Eppy. I do recall Tard being in teamspeak when that bug was discovered and he was working on the talisman at that time. Staff knows who they are bc they had to fix their talisman since they couldn't equip additional relics. I also never said tard did so, I said I was "pretty sure" and I still think he may have, but it doesn't matter as the effort to level the talisman vs effort to level a pet is greatly different.

To level a dexxer/mage talisman takes < 80 hours. To level a meta pet takes 120 + hours. To get to 120 taming/Lore probably takes another 100+ hours unless you are skill scrolling it, in which cases it will cost millions. Throw on top of that the cost of powerscrolls for taming and the cost of taming relics. I'm sorry but when someone tries to compare the time/effort required for one of the meta builds vs a meta pet, it just doesn't make sense to think they are anywhere near equal.

Umm to minimum time to level Quench from level 5 to 6 is 32 hours of constant macroing with a monster that is attacking you with firebreath. Quench has 10 levels. To fully level the defense dexxer talisman with relics takes far more than 80 hours.

 

[Duck Face]

Umm to minimum time to level Quench from level 5 to 6 is 32 hours of constant macroing with a monster that is attacking you with firebreath. Quench has 10 levels. To fully level the defense dexxer talisman with relics takes far more than 80 hours.

You are doing something wrong then. And to point out the obvious fact you are ignoring: Tard and several others macroed up the exp on their talisman / relics over night. Not something you can do w/ a pet.