How to fix meta skill loss for everyone.

[Tard the Paladin]

Um no. This conversation has already happened and as I said than I can out damage my level 7 meta with my level 9 berserker. I can also farm faster with my berserker. There is no issue. The stuff you can tank with a defense tali is insane and if that is not enough for you go get a berserker.

PS. Just whining for nerf to others isn't asking to get end game for your class. It's whining.

I will just reiterate that you are just flat out wrong about that. I have often done champs with Bradley and there is simply no way a meta dexer of any persuasion is going to even come close to getting a similar champ score. Your experience is inaccurate. This is easily verified.

 

[TheFallen]

Wager?

 

[Tard the Paladin]

Wager?

Fuck yeah, if I can get a hold of Bradley and get you two in a champ together I will wager 1 mil.

 

[TheFallen]

Fuck yeah, if I can get a hold of Bradley and get you two in a champ together I will wager 1 mil.

I'm good with that. Which spawn did you have in mind?

 

[Messremb]

I will bet you 10 mil a berserker can out damage any meta in a Locke Cole rda!

 

[Tard the Paladin]

I'm good with that. Which spawn did you have in mind?

Rikktor

 

[TheFallen]

K although this one plays real well to a tamer I'm up to the challenge. Let me know when you get ahold of Bradley and I'll track down some reptilian slayers.

 

[Tard the Paladin]

Sounds good

 

[Bromista]

Pre meta dexers, my LJ with a vanq slayer (two-hander users cant tank for shit) would outscore my meta pet almost 2:1 and that was even during "those" champs when I was off my game and doing a really bad job. Deaths, having to recover gear, wasted time, etc.

I watched Tard work the Destard champ once. Watched him stand on the altar surrounded by spawn for a solid five minutes, maybe ten minutes without dipping below 75% health. I shudder to think how much higher I could score with a high level defensive tali now with the ability to tank like that and not have to strike, retreat, repeat like I used to (and still do to an extent with my berserker)...

Tard living up to his name again.

 

[Tard the Paladin]

Pre meta dexers, my LJ with a vanq slayer (two-hander users cant tank for shit) would outscore my meta pet almost 2:1 and that was even during "those" champs when I was off my game and doing a really bad job. Deaths, having to recover gear, wasted time, etc.

I watched Tard work the Destard champ once. Watched him stand on the altar surrounded by spawn for a solid five minutes, maybe ten minutes without dipping below 75% health. I shudder to think how much higher I could score with a high level defensive tali now with the ability to tank like that and not have to strike, retreat, repeat like I used to (and still do to an extent with my berserker)...

Tard living up to his name again.

That's exactly what I'm saying but it seems we are drawing opposite conclusions. I have done as you say from the very start of Rikktor and Bradley can come in more than half way through and outscore me. I can't even guess as to how many champs Bradley and I have done together. We've often compared our champ scores at regular intervals and I can report that at Destard he will get MORE than DOUBLE my score if we stay in for the same amount of time. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing here. I'm coming from the position that this is a scenario that I have played out many times and know the damage output. And the example that I mention, Rikktor, is actually one of the champs that is easier for me. Rikktor and Barracoon are the champs that I achieve the highest score. I can score well during Mephitis but in the later levels the poison has me running away from mobs rather than tanking them.

One thing to consider is that a dex'r is going to take on mobs one at a time whereas a meta pet can hit multiple mobs. I know that the argument I'm making here is easily verified. The damage output capability of a meta pet against a meta dexer is never going to come out in the dexer's favor when it comes to multiple mobs at a champ.

 

[Ariakan99]

Berserker or Defence talismans have some awesome abilities but I do not see how you can make a comparison with max meta pets. In certain situations either of the talismans is going to do a better job than a meta. To do this you would need the right equipment (slayer ar and weps etc).

The biggest advantage I can see for the meta (I dont have one) is its versatility - they have aspects of all 3 talismans - higher magery/combat skills coupled with high hp and ar value. Allowing a user to be able to tackle pretty much any obstacle barring a few of the bosses and spawns that are 'anti pet'. My berserker can be awesome vs a particular slayer class but I must stick to that - I cannot hop between titans/balrons/blood elles etc without swapping gear.

I prefer the meta dexxer purely for the interactivity - I have had tamers on other shards and eventually all kill and a provo/peace macro gets boring to me. Champ spawns are a different thing - to get the top scores you need to be aware of what you are doing and understand the scoring mechanics a little. I am confident I can equal/outscore most tamers with high level meta pets, @bradley- is a different story - he knows exactly how to rack up his score.

I will eventually get round to testing a meta in action and see which style I prefer. Meta dexxers just add more variety for me.

 

[Tard the Paladin]

Berserker or Defence talismans have some awesome abilities but I do not see how you can make a comparison with max meta pets. In certain situations either of the talismans is going to do a better job than a meta. To do this you would need the right equipment (slayer ar and weps etc).

The biggest advantage I can see for the meta (I dont have one) is its versatility - they have aspects of all 3 talismans - higher magery/combat skills coupled with high hp and ar value. Allowing a user to be able to tackle pretty much any obstacle barring a few of the bosses and spawns that are 'anti pet'. My berserker can be awesome vs a particular slayer class but I must stick to that - I cannot hop between titans/balrons/blood elles etc without swapping gear.

I prefer the meta dexxer purely for the interactivity - I have had tamers on other shards and eventually all kill and a provo/peace macro gets boring to me. Champ spawns are a different thing - to get the top scores you need to be aware of what you are doing and understand the scoring mechanics a little. I am confident I can equal/outscore most tamers with high level meta pets, @bradley- is a different story - he knows exactly how to rack up his score.

I will eventually get round to testing a meta in action and see which style I prefer. Meta dexxers just add more variety for me.

With a slayer weapon and being able to tank all the mobs on me without having to retreat, I still don't have the damage output that Bradley can put out. That is the reason that I know the meta pets have more capability because even under ideal circumstances I have less than half the damage output. I can definitely see why some meta dexers would believe that they have similar capability because I often outperform a lot of tamers as well. I am usually near the top of champ scores but when a tamer with a max'd level 7 meta really commits to doing the champ then I am not going to get half that score.

 

[Messremb]

The only metas that stand a chance are those with high level QS!

Just for fun let's look at the cost to create these two builds using SSs only (I used zerker cause it costs the most)

Berserker
Maybe 800k in SSs
vanq weaps for tally 300k
double strike 5 mil
Tread 3 mil
Infectious 2 mil?
Phase shift 2 mil

Total 13.1 mil

meta tamer
70 SSs 17.5 mil
120 taming PS 8 mil
Meta egg 1 mil
Meta stone 2.5 mil
QS 10+ mil
Molten 6 mil
Bloody 5 mil
Nox 5 mil
total 55 mil
(this also leaves out the amount of time leveling a meta pet, while dexers can afk their leveling)

That's more than 4x as much as the most expensive meta dexer.

But you're right they should be even in all things.

 

[Tard the Paladin]

The only metas that stand a chance are those with high level QS!

Just for fun let's look at the cost to create these two builds using SSs only (I used zerker cause it costs the most)

Berserker
Maybe 800k in SSs
vanq weaps for tally 300k
double strike 5 mil
Tread 3 mil
Infectious 2 mil?
Phase shift 2 mil

Total 13.1 mil

meta tamer
70 SSs 17.5 mil
120 taming PS 8 mil
Meta egg 1 mil
Meta stone 2.5 mil
QS 10+ mil
Molten 6 mil
Bloody 5 mil
Nox 5 mil
total 55 mil
(this also leaves out the amount of time leveling a meta pet, while dexers can afk their leveling)

That's more than 4x as much as the most expensive meta dexer.

But you're right they should be even in all things.

Ok Messremb just blatantly misquote me. Every time I mention balancing the classes I talk about balancing them in terms of risks, consequences, effort, and time.

 

[Messremb]

Ok Messremb just blatantly misquote me. Every time I mention balancing the classes I talk about balancing them in terms of risks, consequences, effort, and time.

Then what is off balance, tamers take the most time, and effort. Have huge consequences, and thanks to all the tamer nerfs they have huge risk too.

When was the last time you lost 140k+ for simply getting killed? (not getting pked and looted)

 

[Tard the Paladin]

Then what is off balance, tamers take the most time, and effort. Have huge consequences, and thanks to all the tamer nerfs they have huge risk too.

When was the last time you lost 140k+ for simply getting killed? (not getting pked and looted)

My main argument has been that additional content should be provided for meta dexers/mages so that they can have similar PVM potential to that of meta tamers. The content should also balance the risks/consequences/effort, etc. I brought this up because Shane mentioned adding in additional content for meta tamers without mentioning more content for dexers/mages. Then once again, someone tried to argue that meta dexers put out more damage than a level 7 meta and I explained how this is not correct when a level 7 meta is max'd out and used properly. That is how we got into the damage output debate.

 

[Tard the Paladin]

I have repeatedly recognized the fact that tamers take on a lot more risk and effort. I am in a tamer guild with teamspeak, I am WELL aware of the consequences of when a pet dies. Let's just say I'm well aware that it sucks when a pet dies. However, it would be nice for the other classes to have similar capability to attain the PVM ability. As it is now, tamers are basically the only end game class.

 

[Messremb]

The damage output is situational and requires one of the most expensive items currently in game! And even still in many situations a dexer can out damage a meta pet.

If you really wanna prove it wrong you should do it at a dexer friendly champ, that way if the tamer wins you actually proved something.

I suggest abyss, deceit, or coon, or if you are certain you are right, Locke Cole rda!

 

[Tard the Paladin]

The damage output is situational and requires one of the most expensive items currently in game! And even still in many situations a dexer can out damage a meta pet.

If you really wanna prove it wrong you should do it at a dexer friendly champ, that way if the tamer wins you actually proved something.

I suggest abyss, deceit, or coon, or if you are certain you are right, Locke Cole rda!

Whaaaaa? Rikktor IS the dexer friendly champ. Rikktor and Coon are the best champs for a dexer. Meta pets outscore a dexer at coon as well. Deceit and Abyss have a lot of casting damage which keeps dexers retreating so these are even worse for a dexer. Cole RDA might be the one exception to RDA's. Any other RDA the only dexer that is going to survive is an archer and their damage output will put them at the very bottom of the list. The dragon RDA is the only one that I can think of where I can actually survive the monsters but the tamers are going to get WAAAAY more damage in.

You keep mentioning that its expensive for Metas and that is correct. What's your point? I'm saying that it would be nice for meta dexers/mages to also have the opportunity to have valuable relics and be able to take on higher risks for higher reward.

Am I wrong in giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are simply misunderstanding the points that I am clearly making?

 

[Bromista]

We're also talking about a meta with QS outscoring you when it was way too strong. Like way, way, way too strong.

And if the dragon RDA is the only RDA with monsters you can tank, then you need to invest in some slayer armor.