Defense Talisman Changes

[Chediak]

Works like it should!?

Let's go back in time to when most of us picked our talisman, and take a look at the choices:

1. Berserker - increased damage vs monsters
2. Mage - improved spellcasting damage and mana efficiency vs monsters
3. Resilience - decreased damage from monsters (unless someone attacks you while you're trying to PVM, then it doesn't do anything)

Sign me up for #3 that one sounds like the best one!

(PS - I'm sobbing uncontrollably as I type this, so it's hard to type because my fingers are slipping off my tear-soaked keyboard)

 

[toddyboi]

$ guild is the only guild who benefit from this so why we should cry ?

You and Bobby are like big dirty cat fish. Swallow all my fucking hooks! I'm off to bass pro to buy some more.

 

[AreYouKidden]

We need end game items like this for PVP players... if not people get bored and quit. Take a look around the docks it's empty. It's also crazy to think that every end game item should never enhance PVP. Your supposed to work your ass of to get to elite levels. This is UO it's not meant to be easy. If not why not just have it so you can set your template to max when you create your character. I've seen so many great, well established, PVP players quit over the years. Is it because there is nothing more for them to work towards?

Anyways... If we are to decide that end game items like this are detrimental to PVP we need to make the same assumption with slayer AR, slayer spell books and slayer weapons. Everything needs to be nullified, against mobs, once you enter combat.

@eppy has said everything that needs to be said IMO.

Your approach would have users with huge grinds, to make themselves godlike, so they couldn't lose at PvP. At some point the gap is so big, no new players ever join (already happening), and then there is no PvP to be had at all - like your docks. And lets be real, while you can't set your template here, the time to level up PvP skills is so minimal, you can roll out a new PvP character every couple of days. Instead of working your ass off, for advantages in game, why not work your ass off in figuring out strategy, and timing, and show your skill on the field?

Besides there is a better approach for keeping PvP'rs interested, it's a consensual PvP system, with benefits outside of PvP.. a system with a low level of entry (no huge grinds) where you could capture points, compete against other groups (lets call them militias), choose different perks/benefits, level them up for bonuses in certain areas, or for certain playstyles, with leaderboards, and seasons so they could be reset... And that's all just a starting point of what a system like this could be come.. I want to make a Kingdoms comment here, but that'd seem too tongue in cheek, so let's just say a system with control, and benefits, with smaller groups, could really be expanded to controlling, areas, and land masses, with different bonuses for having each one... Don't allow any guild to control more than 20% of the board, and you've got opportunity for more guilds to participate, even if they don't get the best bonuses...

 

[Lexington]

Your approach would have users with huge grinds, to make themselves godlike, so they couldn't lose at PvP. At some point the gap is so big, no new players ever join (already happening), and then there is no PvP to be had at all - like your docks. And lets be real, while you can't set your template here, the time to level up PvP skills is so minimal, you can roll out a new PvP character every couple of days. Instead of working your ass off, for advantages in game, why not work your ass off in figuring out strategy, and timing, and show your skill on the field?

Besides there is a better approach for keeping PvP'rs interested, it's a consensual PvP system, with benefits outside of PvP.. a system with a low level of entry (no huge grinds) where you could capture points, compete against other groups (lets call them militias), choose different perks/benefits, level them up for bonuses in certain areas, or for certain playstyles, with leaderboards, and seasons so they could be reset... And that's all just a starting point of what a system like this could be come.. I want to make a Kingdoms comment here, but that'd seem too tongue in cheek, so let's just say a system with control, and benefits, with smaller groups, could really be expanded to controlling, areas, and land masses, with different bonuses for having each one... Don't allow any guild to control more than 20% of the board, and you've got opportunity for more guilds to participate, even if they don't get the best bonuses...

UO has always been about huge grinds! Making it easy mode makes for quick lost interests.

I'm not saying we shouldn't but maybe we need to adjust our thinking pattern away from always attracting new players... to how do we keep our current players. Its always easier to keep someone than it is to attract someone new

 

[AreYouKidden]

You can't keep players forever, the only way to keep a healthy population is allowing the insertion of new blood (though realistically new blood isn't coming in the thousands on a 20 year old game) - I agree in a sense, you don't want to dumb it down to the point of it's easy, and boring, but what made UO PvP great back in the day, was the fact that it had such a low level of entry to get into it, and the sky was the limit with what you could do with it..

Keep the low level of entry, expand the templates (poisoning, firehorns, stun tamers), expand the activities (militias - random PvP adventures). I think you'd find it'd be a lot of fun to play in that type of environment.

 

[girana]

[...]
Keep the low level of entry, expand the templates ([...] stun tamers)[...]

ya 120 tamings are super low level of entry glad we got rid of the super + 500000dmg tali bonus

lol

 

[Lexington]

You can't keep players forever, the only way to keep a healthy population is allowing the insertion of new blood (though realistically new blood isn't coming in the thousands on a 20 year old game) - I agree in a sense, you don't want to dumb it down to the point of it's easy, and boring, but what made UO PvP great back in the day, was the fact that it had such a low level of entry to get into it, and the sky was the limit with what you could do with it..

Keep the low level of entry, expand the templates (poisoning, firehorns, stun tamers), expand the activities (militias - random PvP adventures). I think you'd find it'd be a lot of fun to play in that type of environment.

I agree... the sky was the limit but it took a lot of work to get there... and once there it was totally worth the effort! That's what kept us playing.

 

[Jibreel_kills]

Its funny that when the issue of these working in pvp was raised you got a lot of people trying to say "not many people use it for pvp", "its not a big deal", "its not that much of an advantage" or just "get better" HA you fucking jokes crying because yous cant abuse the system anymore. Its funny to see who gives a shit about balance and the server and who just wants to have the advantage over the next guy. All this stuff was never supposed to work in pvp situations. If you made a char specifically for pvp then youve got what you deserved

Here's a thought.. They've made a change that makes the talismans more in line with their original vision of not affecting PvP... They've now implemented it... Find a way to work with it...

Personally I appreciate the staff can look at the issue at a big picture level, realize it didn't match their vision, and that it's having negative effects, so they'v gone ahead and made a change that of course won't be popular to all, but they do it anyways because it's logical. (still needs to be tweaked of course, and I have faith that the staff will get there)

Now it's time to put your big boy panties on and adapt my friend.

Good change eppy
People saying their going to quit before working out possibilities wow what Bromista said good, we don't need those type of people anyway...
The suggestion peav is speaking of is the same suggestion I was saying, but 10 seconds is too long. 5 seconds seems like enough time to react to a situation.

 

[Lexington]

Good change eppy
People saying their going to quit before working out possibilities wow what Bromista said good, we don't need those type of people anyway...
The suggestion peav is speaking of is the same suggestion I was saying, but 10 seconds is too long. 5 seconds seems like enough time to react to a situation.

At this point we don't need a delay at all... it was only introduced so people couldn't insta change talis. What we do need now, is tali statloss, so it matches the other meta items! We need to stay consistent and fair folks!

 

[AreYouKidden]

ya 120 tamings are super low level of entry glad we got rid of the super + 500000dmg tali bonus

lol

is 120 taming required to be a stun tamer for PvP? And if you are meaning the meta dragons are better at PvP than the regular dragons, then by all means, that should be addressed to. Because the meta pet should cap at a max level dragon, if the person goes into aggressor mode. Much like the meta daemon should for a meta mage.

 

[girana]

is 120 taming required to be a stun tamer for PvP? And if you are meaning the meta dragons are better at PvP than the regular dragons, then by all means, that should be addressed to. Because the meta pet should cap at a max level dragon, if the person goes into aggressor mode. Much like the meta daemon should for a meta mage.

what template is your stuntamer using that he can fit tame,lore,wrest, ana ?

 

[girana]

i am still waiting for names of player who used max out tali for pvp.

 

[AreYouKidden]

what template is your stuntamer using that he can fit tame,lore,wrest, ana ?

I don't play a tamer - but more builds would be more fun, and I've heard people mention stun tamers before. If it's 120 taming required, then yes, that's a little ridiculous calling it low level entry. You could run a 110 taming / 60 lore to get 100% control on a mare. Then go with 100 Wrestling, Anat, Magery, Eval, 80 Resist, 75 Med or flip those. Someone more creative than me I'm sure could figure it out. Gotta be real though, for the extra fire power of a pet, you have to take a penalty somewhere else. Much like the firehorn template required you to take a couple of skills on top of a regular template, it only needed a tweak to fix it, not to remove it.

Anyways this isn't the post about valid templates.

 

[TyroneG]

Sorry I don't read it that way. I don't believe I contradicted my self at all.

With dungeon PVP a lot of the time the final or critical blow is given out by a mob. These talisman (which are available to everyone!) allow the PVP to be based more on the players skill. The problem most have here is they are comparing a dungeon PVP players ability to survive against a PVM players. If players are trying to go toe to toe with a player skilled and geared to solely PVP in a dungeon and feel things should be equal we might as well just start rolling dice to decide who wins.

You are basing this on mobs being equalized in a PVP situation and the outcome of the fight based solely on players skill. It would make more sense for talismans to play no role as obviously not everyone is going to have a talisman... Your scenario of basing it around a players skill is assuming that both players have a talisman. You have it backwards. No talisman for anyone in PVP is the equalizer. Mobs treat everyone the same regardless of how much money/time they spent on items.

On Osi it is horrible that long time Players have so much overpowered items for PvP (Artifacts, 120 skills, Jewelry, Weaps, Armor, etc etc)
that it is impossible for new Players to compete in pvp.
I like the idea on UOForever that everyone can fast lvl a pvp ready character and start playing the game.

^ this. I realize that a talisman isn't absolutely required for anyone to get into PVP. It may only really affect the outcome of a small percentage of the fights. I just think it's a huge step in the wrong direction towards item based PVP. With how many of the fights are being based around spawn and/or in dungeons it is becoming more and more of a big deal. It's not enticing for new players to get started PVPing here when they feel as if they have to grind for hundreds of hours and spend millions of gold in order to be on the same level playing field as others.

Great change. Now it works as it should. I feel sorry for those who lvled their talismans for pvp though.

Yea I mean that does kinda suck for the people who got this solely for PVP, but I think this change was a long time coming. I think if anyone can step back and look at this objectively they can see the problem in PVM items affecting PVP. On that same note, you can't base balancing decisions (especially in regards to PVP) based on how much money or how much time people spent on the items. People spent millions of gold just the same making stun tamers and firehorn mages (my whole group did) and these too were nerfed for balance - in fact I was exclusively playing these templates and was one of the main people campaigning for them to be balanced. Same thing with people who spent the money on layering faction armored robes (which players got no refund for). I'll admit that I don't know exactly how the talismans work, but would there really be that big of an issue in letting people transfer the talismans to other players? I don't see how it could be that much of a problem, and hopefully allowing players to trade them off would keep these affected players from being so upset.



I'm sure it will get a lot of negative response, but I would like the same for all talismans. I'm sure it doesn't have nearly as much of an impact as the defense talisman, but there is no reason people should be able to phase shift away or whatever in combat. Same thing with meta pets - in combat situations they should be no different than their dragon counterparts. PVM additions are great and vital to the servers population, but should have no impact at all on PVP.

 

[Ranker]

Good change eppy
People saying their going to quit before working out possibilities wow what Bromista said good, we don't need those type of people anyway...
The suggestion peav is speaking of is the same suggestion I was saying, but 10 seconds is too long. 5 seconds seems like enough time to react to a situation.

I will quit, and I have been here awhile I'd say. I play a def tal for PvM. That and crafting are my thing(to slow to pvp anymore, well pvp any good that is) So i mean if you don't need/want long term players like me as well then by all means that is yours and Brom's opinion's to have and feel. However I don't wanna have to deal with people attacking me just to get me to lose my bonus. I am fine with if I attack someone else, And I do mean I am the aggressor, not this they hit me, I auto attack back and my bonus drops bullshit. If I or anyone using a tal attacks the bonus should drop, but if someone attacks me, sorry that is on them for being dumb.

I think there is a middle ground that would make most party's happy. I just don't see the people wanting it to stay as *Bonus drops when hit no matter what* are going to change, and the reason is griefing/easier pking.

 

[AreYouKidden]

Hang in there Ranker - they'll fix it to aggressor, or revert it, and a meta crafter is coming soon I'm hearing!

 

[Chediak]

I will quit, and I have been here awhile I'd say. I play a def tal for PvM. That and crafting are my thing(to slow to pvp anymore, well pvp any good that is) So i mean if you don't need/want long term players like me as well then by all means that is yours and Brom's opinion's to have and feel. However I don't wanna have to deal with people attacking me just to get me to lose my bonus. I am fine with if I attack someone else, And I do mean I am the aggressor, not this they hit me, I auto attack back and my bonus drops bullshit. If I or anyone using a tal attacks the bonus should drop, but if someone attacks me, sorry that is on them for being dumb.

I think there is a middle ground that would make most party's happy. I just don't see the people wanting it to stay as *Bonus drops when hit no matter what* are going to change, and the reason is griefing/easier pking.

Like you, I'm struggling with this change, trying to see how to enjoy PVM as defense now that there's such a wide-open mechanism for griefers to ruin it for me. I don't believe I'll quit UOForever, I really love it here, but I will likely have to switch to a different character to enjoy it as much. It's a sad prospect that a change to mechanics could make committed players question if they want to stay here.

Regardless of mechanics and rule-sets, the reason we're all here is because the server has a robust number of active players. I'd never be excited to see anyone leave permanently, even @Bromista and @Jibreel_kills who apparently don't see it this way.

 

[Lexington]

You are basing this on mobs being equalized in a PVP situation and the outcome of the fight based solely on players skill. It would make more sense for talismans to play no role as obviously not everyone is going to have a talisman... Your scenario of basing it around a players skill is assuming that both players have a talisman. You have it backwards. No talisman for anyone in PVP is the equalizer. Mobs treat everyone the same regardless of how much money/time they spent on items.

You're to late for this argument... you needed to make this statement before they were introduced.

It's also a players template choice if they want to travel dungeons without a talisman looking for PVP. Mobs treat everyone the same? Lets get rid of resist, peacekeeping and wrestling... they affect PVP. With your statement the player that doesn't spend the time or gold leveling resist should be equal to one that does.

Bottom line... this change is extremely disrespectful to the player base that spent hundreds of hours and millions of gold to level up their talisman... all because some are to #$#^ing lazy to do the same!

 

[Ranker]

Hang in there Ranker - they'll fix it to aggressor, or revert it, and a meta crafter is coming soon I'm hearing!

To be fair, I don't think I would outright quit. But I wouldn't PvM at all. I might just turn to crafting more instead

 

[AreYouKidden]

Bottom line... this change is extremely disrespectful to the player base that spent hundreds of hours and millions of gold to level up their talisman... all because some are to #$#^ing lazy to do the same!

That's a pretty strong comment. For new players, who are getting into the server, don't have the capital to build up the relics, your telling us it's a matter of laziness if they don't grind up a relic? The reality is, if they want to play with all the meta paths, it could take them a couple of years to collect everything they want. Even if they only focus on the defense tali, for it's bonuses in PvP, it could take several millions to farm, plus all the XP games to make it worthwhile. That's not laziness, it's an extremely high bar. And on top of that, is the expectations that mages, bards, and tamers all use this defense tali for the PvP bonuses? (which btw, bards & tamers can't).

The swampy change, I personally don't like, it's something all players could acquire and use, and 500-750k isn't an insane amount, although it is a challenge for newer players, but there I could give you, some things need to be worked for, maybe it takes a couple of months for a player to get established, to afford the swampy, along with other things they invest in early on.. but the talisman grind was just too big of a gap, and that's just too much of a difference, and why the change needed to be made.

Also to suggest it's disrespectful to players who have spent the time, most of them got the talisman for the interests of PvM, and when they understand the bonuses in PvP, I'm sure they changed their use of it. For more recent ones who got it only for advantages in PvP, one could argue you've disrespected the designers by using the items not for their intended use. The reality is, some problems, bugs are only figured out through creative use over time, the staff would be doing an injustice to the player base, if they let it remain once they determined it was becoming an issue.

And lastly for those saying it wasn't even that much of a problem, then how come people are spending that much time grinding these up for the bonuses? There's obviously a reason they are doing it.