Meta Mage Talisman and Relics - Tweaks and Ideas

parsnip

Grandmaster
Mainly for @eppy's benefit but I thought I'd post here so that others can chip in. Having had a little bit of time to poke around at level 10, here are a few tweaks and ideas for improving the meta mage and making it a little more competitive against meta dexxers:

Talisman
Unless you can afford one of the rare slayer spellbooks, mages don't have the luxury of choosing an appropriate slayer or the ability to take advantage of other damage modifiers. The talisman could benefit from a little bit of extra damage.
Following a recent change, the shadow disciple relic has a change to decrease the targets resist for a short period. This could perhaps be added as a passive benefit of the talisman (1% per level?)

Relics
Dispersion: Fun when it triggers but rarely get the full benefit of hitting 10 mobs. The limited range means that mobs have to be stacked on top of each other which is quite rare, even at champs. Would like to see the relic have greater range but hit fewer mobs. For example, range and number of mobs could alternate with each level. Level 1 - Hit two mobs, 3 tile radius. Level 2 - Hit two mobs, 4 tile radius. Level 3 - Hit three mobs, 4 tile radius... And so on.

Vivify: Tanky at level 10 but prone to dispelling. EVs still win. A mechanism to increase resistance against PvM dispelling would be welcome. It would also be nice to get a little bit of mana back when Vivify triggers (half the spell cost?). I've had vivify fail to trigger and regular summoned daemon be instantly dispelled. On second attempt, a vivify daemon was summoned but I was then left with almost no mana. By the time I could fire a few e-bolts, the vifify daemon has been dispelled too.

Focus: No complaints, works as advertised. It might be cool to add a damage boost if a character has another skill (e.g. Inscription), much like Phase Shift benefits from having Hiding/Stealth.

Shadow Disciple: Following the changes mentioned above, I think this is a more useful relic but could still do with some tweaking. If resist % decrease is added as a passive to the talisman, I think this relic should focus on helping with mana management. One idea being to stick with the mana return when it triggers but, rather than further decreasing the target's resist for a period, decreasing the cost of casting offensive spells by a % on PvM targets. The easier alternative would be to leech mana with every spell for a brief period when it triggers.
 

parsnip

Grandmaster
Regarding the talisman cooldown, perhaps a mechanism could be added to reduce or bypass the 15 minute cooldown. For example, a sacrifice to the Forgotten Warrior - Tithe some gold or donate a few vanquishing weapons to appease your warrior God ;)
 

Arch Enemy

Grandmaster
Following a recent change, the shadow disciple relic has a change to decrease the targets resist for a short period.

This was already changed? I heard it might be changed soon, but I didn't know it already got changed. Where are the patch notes/update thread on the forum? Was there even any at all? Or was this just something that was said in IRC?
 

Arch Enemy

Grandmaster
I am bad at documentation

Can you please write it up somewhere where everyone can see it? Or at least edit the "Talisman definitions" thread so when people check it they will see the updated info? I got one of those relics and no one wants it cause they think it's crap, but now that it's less crappy, maybe someone will want it and I can finally sell it. Pleeeeease?

Edit: Sorry I shoulda sent this in a PM so I don't clutter parsnip's thread, my bad. Idk how to delete my own post though. Is that even possible?
 

VFingerDiscount

Grandmaster
I would like to add a suggestion.

Regarding training the mage talisman, this is inherently the hardest talisman to level as mana is quite finite and as such requires dumping mana, running to a safe spot to med, rinse, repeat. And we are the most vulnerable as we should have no armor and stay close to mob to gain the most xp.

Dexxers have the luxury of never having to stop attacking as long as they are well armored and healing self.

Meta pets are gaining as they attack anything regardless of what its provo'd on.

Could we please get xp regardless of whom the mob is aggroed toward?

Mage tali is the best sink out of all the disciplines as we are using thousands and thousands of regs as compared to bandaids on a dexxer and vet heals if even needed while pet munches on provoked mobs.

@eppy
 

kurtis

Grandmaster
I would like to add a suggestion.

Regarding training the mage talisman, this is inherently the hardest talisman to level as mana is quite finite and as such requires dumping mana, running to a safe spot to med, rinse, repeat. And we are the most vulnerable as we should have no armor and stay close to mob to gain the most xp.

Dexxers have the luxury of never having to stop attacking as long as they are well armored and healing self.

Meta pets are gaining as they attack anything regardless of what its provo'd on.

Could we please get xp regardless of whom the mob is aggroed toward?

Mage tali is the best sink out of all the disciplines as we are using thousands and thousands of regs as compared to bandaids on a dexxer and vet heals if even needed while pet munches on provoked mobs.

@eppy

^ The reason I won't bother with this talisman yet.

There's a lack of congruence between how a mage naturally farms and kill mobs and how the mage must level the Idol of the Magi. The mage has always farmed by summoning daemons/ev's and then firing direct damage spells *from a distance*. It makes no sense for a mage to be as close to the mob as possible (who does this?!?), and just cast damage spells while retaining aggro...rather than using summons.

I always felt like the spirit behind the talismans was to encourage players to actually use their non-tamers, non-provokers in PvM situations. But if you force the player to use their character in an unnatural and unintuitive way, it's a bit discouraging honestly. This is particularly true when the process is long and tedious.
 

Lexington

Grandmaster
^ The reason I won't bother with this talisman yet.

There's a lack of congruence between how a mage naturally farms and kill mobs and how the mage must level the Idol of the Magi. The mage has always farmed by summoning daemons/ev's and then firing direct damage spells *from a distance*. It makes no sense for a mage to be as close to the mob as possible (who does this?!?), and just cast damage spells while retaining aggro...rather than using summons.

I always felt like the spirit behind the talismans was to encourage players to actually use their non-tamers, non-provokers in PvM situations. But if you force the player to use their character in an unnatural and unintuitive way, it's a bit discouraging honestly. This is particularly true when the process is long and tedious.


THIS ^
 

eppy

Grandmaster
I think I can remove the distance penalty at this point. It was a cheap anti macroing device but since I have capped xp per mob it doesn't seem that needed anymore. The penalty is very low regardless.
 

Lexington

Grandmaster
I think I can remove the distance penalty at this point. It was a cheap anti macroing device but since I have capped xp per mob it doesn't seem that needed anymore. The penalty is very low regardless.

AWESOME!!

What about EV damage and the agro thingy?
 

VFingerDiscount

Grandmaster
That's awesome, thanks.

Now what about the other points, i.e. requiring the mob to be aggroed on you and you to be armorless?

As mentioned by another this is completely abnormal for our class. Mages EV, summon and med/dump.

Dexxers get to fight as normal. Tamers get to fight as normal. And level their respective meta items.

Mages are forced to be crippled and run and med. Which is odd considering that a dexxer uses nothing but aids and likewise or even less for a Provo tamer yet they reap all the benefits.

We are spending the most in resources and have the hardest route and a finite supply of mana while dexxers and tamers wail away...
 

eppy

Grandmaster
When I think evs I think of the Lord oaks spawn and ev bots. So no. Aggro is another matter and I'm not sure how I feel about it yet.
 

Lexington

Grandmaster
When I think evs I think of the Lord oaks spawn and ev bots. So no. Aggro is another matter and I'm not sure how I feel about it yet.

I've never done the Oaks spawn so I can't relate to being able to run a macro there. It just sucks when you do a champ spawn that can take hours... and as a mage you cast %90 EV and you don't gain EXP but the dexers gain at that very same event. There has to be a way to make it fair???


Argo....You feel all warm and fuzzy :)
 

kurtis

Grandmaster
Yeah, that's another point. Since mages need aggro to level, they can't level in any group situation. If you're out PvMing with a tamer, dexer, and provoker, let's say - trying to do a champ, or roll a dungeon, or whatever - how often is the mage ever going to have aggro? The answer is never. The mage is forced to solo level his talisman.
 

Lexington

Grandmaster
Yeah, that's another point. Since mages need aggro to level, they can't level in any group situation. If you're out PvMing with a tamer, dexer, and provoker, let's say - trying to do a champ, or roll a dungeon, or whatever - how often is the mage ever going to have aggro? The answer is never. The mage is forced to solo level his talisman.


I'm only half way through level one and I'm almost ready to give up, like I did with my pet... It's boring as #@$@. Not the Talisman part just the leveling!
 
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