Feedback on 1% skill lost with gain speed as player

[Sundigo]

Leaving pets at champ spawns while afk is pretty much afk resource gathering and has nothing to do with training. Now since we have smart gm they would rather find a solution to encourage more active play than just ban everyone. As for high mobs you either are expected to work in groups or learn tactics that don't just treat pets as so disposable.
I'm sorry you can't see the fact that everyone having 7x pets devalues pets. If your play style is to throw your pets at some thing and spend a couple of bandaid once it's dead you shouldn't have the same benefits of the tamer actively working with their pet.

If removing skills is the "smart solution" to an AFK violation, then why not just zero out the mining skill or lumberjacking skill for people caught doing that? An AFK violation is an AFK violation, whether it be AFK pet training or AFK mining. You didn't actually answer whether it is an AFK violation on the pet thing, and I don't know if it is (I know for mining/lumberjacking it certainly is) - but the point is, there are consequences for these things put in place by the GMs, and consistency is important.

So, in your opinion, the problem with people throwing their pets over and over at a high-level mob is that you don't think its good tactics? And therefore it should be punishable with perma pet statloss when the pet dies? Alright, well... I disagree, but thank you for clarifying your reason (that reason being: its "bad tactics") .

As for my understanding (or not understanding) about an abundance of something devaluing it, well - that's the first you've mentioned it. It is true that an overabundance of ANYTHING devalues that thing, whatever it is. I guess what you are trying to say (couched in your inferring something about my understanding of something we hadn't mentioned to each other yet) is that this will help to "stop the devaluing of 7x pets by decreasing their numbers through this statloss penalty"? Again, if you think that's a problem and this is a good solution, well, thanks for clarifying. I respectfully disagree (on both counts).

Regards,

Sundigo

 

[halygon]

Leaving pets at champ spawns while afk is pretty much afk resource gathering and has nothing to do with training. Now since we have smart gm they would rather find a solution to encourage more active play than just ban everyone. As for high mobs you either are expected to work in groups or learn tactics that don't just treat pets as so disposable.
I'm sorry you can't see the fact that everyone having 7x pets devalues pets. If your play style is to throw your pets at some thing and spend a couple of bandaid once it's dead you shouldn't have the same benefits of the tamer actively working with their pet.

^ this. I know we have gotten used to always having highly trained pets around. On every other shard I have ever played, you don't bring 7x pets out for normal pvm because they are so highly regarded. You use a well trained ( like 80s and 90s skills) pet that you won't cry if it dies.

It's just like a dexxor doesn't use his absolute best weapon and armor to just farm.

Like Shane said, it has been OP/Easy mode up to this point and the disregard tamers have shown for everything has exemplified this.

And as a side note, vet is for HEALING your pet and redding them in a worst case scenario. To hear you guys say it is 100 points for nothing but ressing a pet shows just how far into OP land this has gotten.

As another side note, just because taming is the hardest damn skill to train on here doesn't have ANYTHING to do with your pet skill gain. Remember , with GM or higher taming, you can simply tame and sell pets without doing anything else. That's already a cash cow without the high gold rate per hour capability while farming. Hell there are many mobs that cannot even be taken down without a tamer to tank with a pet.

Tamers have definitely had it waaaaaaaaaay to easy up to this point. Suffer through a week if taming training and you are golden for life.

 

[TheFallen]

Actually what I'm inferring is that you are failing to grasp why any of this was a problem the way it was. Until you can either see why it was a problem or accept it is something that they want to avoid you are not going to be able to accept any nerf put in place.
Maybe a better question is why can't you use a pet with 90 in each skill? If you want 7x pet you have to work for it if you just want to farm feel free to use 7x 90 and have no draw back from a pet dieing.
I did say the balance should be that you can gain on all skills through normal farming with the occasional death slowing your progress.
To answer the question about training no training a pet afk is not against anything to my knowledge but what I was referring to was getting champ points and had nothing to do with training.

 

[Bunnky]

Sometimes, banning everyone is the only solution to an out of control problem. More people need to be jailed or banned for afk resource gathering of ANY sort, anyway.. It's rampant.. Like a plague. This includes champ points, and conquest achievements.

Finding a middle ground between skill loss, and skill gain here is difficult no doubt. If you increase skill gain, pets become strong too fast, if you diminish it, noone wants to bring their pets out, for the fear of losing 3 hours worth of skill gain. I like the idea of temporary stat loss over any other option, even though I see that as "blue tamer" stat loss. This will force people to pay attention to their pet health, and the penalty for death is a temporary cut in gold farmed/champ score loss.

Sent from my LGMS323 using Tapatalk

 

[Sundigo]

Actually what I'm inferring is that you are failing to grasp why any of this was a problem the way it was. Until you can either see why it was a problem or accept it is something that they want to avoid you are not going to be able to accept any nerf put in place.
Maybe a better question is why can't you use a pet with 90 in each skill? If you want 7x pet you have to work for it if you just want to farm feel free to use 7x 90 and have no draw back from a pet dieing.
I did say the balance should be that you can gain on all skills through normal farming with the occasional death slowing your progress.
To answer the question about training no training a pet afk is not against anything to my knowledge but what I was referring to was getting champ points and had nothing to do with training.

Exactly, I don't understand why it was a problem because until this Nerf hit I had never heard it even discussed. Since the Nerf, the general reaction I have seen from those affected (tamers with high end pets) has been complete shock followed by immediate anger (seemingly quite justified from the stories I have read of their experiences). The fact that I don't understand is the REASON I am asking. So far the responses from you in answer to that question have been:

AFK'ing is a reason (unknown whether it is actually illegal and if so then why not use prescribed AFK consequences already in place)

Its bad tactics to repeatedly throw your pet at a high end mob, so this will force tamers to learn to play better. (except that it appears to have an equal effect on those who play well, to the point that some of the best tamers in the game have decided that the best tactic for now is: not to play)

It will help keep the value of a 7x pet higher by making them more rare. Well, true enough. Though I've never been one to value something I cannot use, and I was certainly not aware that high end 7x pets were selling too cheaply.

And so, I respectfully disagree with you that any of these are valid reasons as explained by you. You can dismiss my disagreeing with your reasons as "my just not understanding" all you like, but the truth is that your explanation do not meet my criteria for being logically sound - they seem too easy to pick apart, and certainly don't seem strong enough to merit the changes that were made. I'm satisfied to agree to disagree.

Regards,

Sundigo

 

[Sundigo]

^ this. I know we have gotten used to always having highly trained pets around. On every other shard I have ever played, you don't bring 7x pets out for normal pvm because they are so highly regarded. You use a well trained ( like 80s and 90s skills) pet that you won't cry if it dies.

It's just like a dexxor doesn't use his absolute best weapon and armor to just farm.

Like Shane said, it has been OP/Easy mode up to this point and the disregard tamers have shown for everything has exemplified this.

And as a side note, vet is for HEALING your pet and redding them in a worst case scenario. To hear you guys say it is 100 points for nothing but ressing a pet shows just how far into OP land this has gotten.

As another side note, just because taming is the hardest damn skill to train on here doesn't have ANYTHING to do with your pet skill gain. Remember , with GM or higher taming, you can simply tame and sell pets without doing anything else. That's already a cash cow without the high gold rate per hour capability while farming. Hell there are many mobs that cannot even be taken down without a tamer to tank with a pet.

Tamers have definitely had it waaaaaaaaaay to easy up to this point. Suffer through a week if taming training and you are golden for life.

Again, I hear you guys keep saying Tamers have had it too easy. OK, I get it. Now tell me WHY that is so.

Your answers:

1.) Other shards people don't bring out their 7x's. Umm, okay. Why not? (I guess I will ask)... ...and this has what to do with our shard?

2.) Shane said it has been OP'd. Okay, I realize it is his server, but answering a "why" with "Cuz Shane said" really still doesn't answer the question.

3.) Disregard tamers have shown is proof that its OP... Examples? (Throwing a pet against a high-end mob over and over? Only explanation I've heard on this so far)

4.) Mentioning that we skill vet just for resurrection(since healing can be done with Magery) is proof that it is OP. ....huh? Again, I'm looking for explanations, not just unsupported assertions, which anybody can make.

5.) Taming being hard has nothing to do with pet skill gain. Sure, but the imposed penalties for reasons so far not very well explained or justified make it far less valuable to go through it, by significantly nerfing the end game rewards.

6.) Tamers have had it wayyyy to easy. Again, looking for logical justifications for the Nerf. This is simply another unsupported assertion.

Still looking for answers other than "Tamers have had it too easy, this was a good move." (which does nothing to explain anything) I'm hoping Shane will weigh in with some good logical reasons for why this was a problem that warranted this fix.

Regards,

Sundigo

 

[Kears]

Thank you Shane for giving your attention to this. What I can suggest is the below:

Right now, Difficulty rating: Extreme hard (think Dark Souls)

For temporary solution to this before a well-thought idea comes along, we can do either of the following:

#1 (Difficulty rating: Moderate)
Change back to the previous skill gain rate for pets and increase the skill drop to 2.5%.
If I can put an estimate to the time needed to gain back 2.5% of resist and magery, it would be a 45-70mins of playtime (without anymore deaths)

#2 (Difficulty rating: Hard)
Maintain the player-like skill gain rate for pets but decrease the skill drop to 0.5%.
If I can again put an estimate to the time needed, it would be 90-120mins of playtime (without anymore deaths)


Thanks.

 

[TheFallen]

Ok I'll give you a simple reason. In uo death has consequences. Prior to nerf pet death was meaningless. Now we can resume this conversation from a point of is therea better way to make pet death meaningful and not cause so many crying posts.

As I have stated this change was needed pet death should matter but I think we can still find balance. .1 skill loss with an extra loss if away from your pet is an option. Or allow res with no loss if you sacrifice 5k to akor (from Bank) and the next time akor spawns he has 25% of everyone's sacrifice on him.

You see rather than just saying I don't like it. You should change it back. You did this for no reason. Etc. Understand something must have promoted this decision and if you don't like the way is being handles be creative in helping with a solution.

The gm have stated that this was done after watching goings on in the world and see an abundance of pet abuse. (Once again not afk training since training was pointless but afk Champ spawns conquests etc. ..)

 

[Sundigo]

Ok I'll give you a simple reason. In uo death has consequences. Prior to nerf pet death was meaningless. Now we can resume this conversation from a point of is therea better way to make pet death meaningful and not cause so many crying posts.

As I have stated this change was needed pet death should matter but I think we can still find balance. .1 skill loss with an extra loss if away from your pet is an option. Or allow res with no loss if you sacrifice 5k to akor (from Bank) and the next time akor spawns he has 25% of everyone's sacrifice on him.

You see rather than just saying I don't like it. You should change it back. You did this for no reason. Etc. Understand something must have promoted this decision and if you don't like the way is being handles be creative in helping with a solution.

The gm have stated that this was done after watching goings on in the world and see an abundance of pet abuse. (Once again not afk training since training was pointless but afk Champ spawns conquests etc. ..)

Fair enough. One comment first: I never said "Change it back". All I ever said was "I don't understand what the problem was, can you please explain?"

Now - pet deaths should have consequences. That is still only an assertion, but in this case it is one that I can support for you. Here is the reason why:

Pets are like weapons for tamers. For every other class, the consequence of dying is that you will probably lose your weapon (for mages and bards this is not really a problem, but that is the nature of those classes, which come with their own drawbacks anyways). But as things were with a tamer, they didn't even have to engage in the fight - they just stood back and let the pet do it for them. Thus, there was little danger of them dying, and zero consequence if their pet died and they just fled. Thus, almost zero risk for them (other than inconvenience of having to come back later and get/rez pet), and no loss of their weapon when they lost the fight. In fact, it was much like having a blessed weapon! They could never lose it! I agree, that is an imbalance. All reward (and huge rewards) with almost zero riskI

You could totally even it out by eliminating pet resurrecting, so if your pet dies bye-bye! However, the pet bonding thing is useful to everybody (think mounts). I also think that being able to bond with higher end pets is another justifiable reward for going through the arduous task of becoming a high end tamer.

So a balanced approach, as you put it, could be achieved through pet stat loss. Not a bad idea. The gold loss idea is pretty good too. Maybe even a combo of both - not enough statloss to render the pet unusable, and enough gold to make it felt. I can see the merits in that.

I think that the most logical way to implement would be to start with the smallest increment of pet statloss to begin with, watch and see if it curbs the unwanted behavior enough, increase another increment if it does not, rinse and repeat. When the pool of people committing the unwanted behavior gets small enough, state loudly and clearly what that behavior is, then hand out warnings and finally bans. Then you don't unduly affect those who become technical casualties of the automated penalty, and the hardcore abusers go away.

I like it

Regards,

Sundigo

 

[TheFallen]

Yes I know you were not whining change it back and my responses were more at the general public who never even try to fully understand what is going on and simply attack those who are making the changes and it must get really straining at times so I figured I would carry the torch on this one to defend them.

Now one point I do strongly agree with is stating small and ramping up nerf as a better approach to not catch anyone off guard and help those who are adverse to change. I think the decision was made so drastic originally because there was no starting point but given time they will find the balance and life in uo will continue on forever.

 

[ShinPi]

All this stuff pet this pet that hell I wish I could raise my damn taming high enough to get something other than a mongbat to battle with me hahahaha

 

[Nubias Noxxa]

Ill just throw this out there to all the tamers complaining. We didnt have bonded pets when I first started taming on OSI. When a pet died, you LOST it. That was the end. When a dexxer dies, he still loses everything. When a mage dies, he loses everything. Come on people. This game was built around risk v reward. Tamers take the smallest risk, yet gain the biggest reward. This IS NOT what UO was founded on. You now have consequences for your actions again, and all I have seen is complaints about it. Tamers STILL have it easy-mode...

 

[Bigwyrm]

So what exactly are you guys looking for here? Before, as it was, people really didn't give two cares about their "bonded pets" that are suppose to be the closest companion to them over-all. They would let them die, with zero consequence what so ever or give a shit. We are all about finding balance for sure guys, but this is a first step to finding that. Let us know your issues, concerns etc like Kaers did and we will take it into consideration hands down.

Basically it was really EASY/OP originally,
However now maybe its a bit too hard.

This whole premiss that masses of us tamers are leaving pets at spawns or at high lvl mobs is a joke right?Who is doing this ??Every tamer i knw has never done this.. i have no idea what this is all about because..if you leave your pet at a spawn or at a high lvl mob with no regard for them..or with out healing they die in less than 2 mins and will never kill anything worth of anything..so anyone who is doing this is not smart as this is not affective all ..Now when conquests were out and people were leaving there drags in orc cave for days with no regard for there pets yes this is same as afk resourse gathering and should be treated as such !! But if a tamer want to multi box a champ like all of us do then why should he be penalized ??He has same right to tab over to both chars at champ ..it just looks diff then when tamer does it but same risk reward as everone else!! As i see it there dosent need to be any adjustments at all if this is the reasoning behind all this..lets go back to the game we all signed up for ..there is no need for further penalty for tamers on pet death or for pet skills gains...we have plenty of penalty as it is..the game was balanced as it was for as long as i can remeber

i was goin along thinking these changes were taking place because of all new pets being introduced and was willing to see it threw and give it a wait and see type of attitude ..after all i dont knw what is in the works in future...but if this is to stop people from using pets as they have always properly been used.. that is not good and will result worse game play for us all

 

[Bigwyrm]

Ill just throw this out there to all the tamers complaining. We didnt have bonded pets when I first started taming on OSI. When a pet died, you LOST it. That was the end. When a dexxer dies, he still loses everything. When a mage dies, he loses everything. Come on people. This game was built around risk v reward. Tamers take the smallest risk, yet gain the biggest reward. This IS NOT what UO was founded on. You now have consequences for your actions again, and all I have seen is complaints about it. Tamers STILL have it easy-mode...

and for this guy where to begin ?? you must be kidding right ..how long does it take for your dexxer to get suited back up again restock ?? how long does it take to go tame a new dragon train it so can even survive ??? pls save your breath when you have nothing to contribute...i made my dexxer in 4hrs and was basically free ..tamer took 3 months and cost over 10 mill so pls

 

[Nubias Noxxa]

and for this guy where to begin ?? you must be kidding right ..how long does it take for your dexxer to get suited back up again restock ?? how long does it take to go tame a new dragon train it so can even survive ??? pls save your breath when you have nothing to contribute...i made my dexxer in 4hrs and was basically free ..tamer took 3 months and cost over 15 mill so pls

And a dexer makes what 20k and hour while tamers make 150k per hour? The benfit of a tamer way outweighs the time/gold it took you to train it. You can make 15 mil in a week with a tamer if you try. A dexer is lucky to make a mil in that same time frame. You are the one who has got to be kidding if you think an advantage like that should be as easy as it has been...

 

[Bigwyrm]

15 mill in week? common i dont wana have to back and forth with someone who has no clue common bro... i told you what it cost to make a tame right ..your points are not valid ..the end

 

[Nubias Noxxa]

Uhh 150k per hour x 10 hours a day takes 10 days.. so a week and a half.. keep telling me I have no clue. Ive had tamers on other shards. If you cant make at least 10m in two weeks or less you're doing something wrong. I understand people have jobs and cant no-life UO, but some don't. If you can put the time in, tamers can make ridiculous amounts of gold compared to any other class.

 

[TheFallen]

And a dexer makes what 20k and hour while tamers make 150k per hour? The benfit of a tamer way outweighs the time/gold it took you to train it. You can make 15 mil in a week with a tamer if you try. A dexer is lucky to make a mil in that same time frame. You are the one who has got to be kidding if you think an advantage like that should be as easy as it has been...

Seriously when you join a conversation about tamers and come across as someone who hasn't made, used or even researched anything about Taming your opinions become worthless pretty quick.

 

[Bigwyrm]

Uhh 150k per hour x 10 hours a day takes 10 days.. so a week and a half.. keep telling me I have no clue. Ive had tamers on other shards. If you cant make at least 10m in two weeks or less you're doing something wrong. I understand people have jobs and cant no-life UO, but some don't. If you can put the time in, tamers can make ridiculous amounts of gold compared to any other class.

and your point is ...sounds like sour grapes to me..make a tamer then ...then you can talk

 

[Nubias Noxxa]

Seriously when you join a conversation about tamers and come across as someone who hasn't made, used or even researched anything about Taming your opinions become worthless pretty quick.

I dont understand how im coming across that way. Its been awhile since Ive made a tamer yes, but on OSI I made a tamer and within 3 months of becoming GM I deleted it. I had become rich enough to deal in rares, and was one of the richest players on great lakes eventually. A tamer can fund every other character you have by itself.