Fairplay Balanced Militia System - Manfro Thread

[AreYouKidden]

Because I can get loot off of mobs, and I don't care to WIN Ultima Online... To be fair, you can get that feeling from being a PK if that's what your interested in. You can get loot, and feel like you've won. There are also hundreds of more advanced PvP based systems in games, if your only goal is to get the feeling of winning.

What I want is a consensual PvP playground, where there's more than 15 people playing in it. Something that has varying levels of PvP'rs participating in it. And to do that, you need a fun system, plus some incentive, or progression based system to give people goals to aim towards. I'm not looking to get rich while PvP'n, just something to compensate the time I'm putting in.

 

[girana]

Because I can get loot off of mobs, and I don't care to WIN Ultima Online... To be fair, you can get that feeling from being a PK if that's what your interested in. You can get loot, and feel like you've won. There are also hundreds of more advanced PvP based systems in games, if your only goal is to get the feeling of winning.

What I want is a consensual PvP playground, where there's more than 15 people playing in it. Something that has varying levels of PvP'rs participating in it. And to do that, you need a fun system, plus some incentive, or progression based system to give people goals to aim towards. I'm not looking to get rich while PvP'n, just something to compensate the time I'm putting in.

name one mmo that has such System that works and not get abused asfuck.

 

[AreYouKidden]

I think the abuse card is far too over played, every single idea can be downplayed with the abuse card, there are no perfect systems. Instanced PvP is one way to control the field (not that I want that), also systems to build reputation, or currency based on PvP could also work, if laid out properly, and the rewards weren't a get rich quick scheme.

Using that currency towards in game aesthetic or house deco purchases, would actually provide incentive for many. it's just the matter of working towards something daily. I know many a Knight who'd quiver over the thoughts of having a decked out Knights castle with banners, and armor/weapon stands, lining the walls...

The reality is, instead of throwing away every idea because of the abuse card, list the ways they can be abused, so we can try to formulate counters towards it? Saying something won't work, or it'll be abused doesn't further any discussions, and if the goal isn't to further the discussion, what's the point of speaking up?

 

[Manfro]

Thanks again for your interst,
1) as you may imagine, only if your group is made by 30+ players would encounter that problem, but this is exactly why the system is been designed to work.

Let's make an exemple, There is 2 Guilds, they are Called Merkt and mICE,those guilds have a lot of people intersted in consensual pvp,so the Guildmasters of Merkt and MICE would have the same problem you mentioned, at that point their only solution is to talk each other, and pick a different militia for theyr big groups. This will make Them happy having theyr guild in the same Militia, and All the system more balanced in term of numbers.

2) if One side is dominant,( wich is natural,if there is competition someone has to momentaly win), he'll be facing most of the times the other two sides that sooner or later will finish co-working and it will face 60% of the militia population.

3) Beauty of uo is freedom my friend, people choose to do whatever they want, and what cathegory of player be, i remember first tiem i installed uo as a kid, 'Where will you go?' 'What will you do?' were the first message when installation begin.

In uo there is cathegorizes (ingame, not irl Shane where men are not scheduled and all differents)

PvPers enjoy the fight, and they enjoy playng with people just for the fun of the fights, and the competition involved.
they don't need a goal to be achieved, they need a team, and opposite teams, and a random goal to meet them, if there is a cool preety well
designed Base to raid / defend is even more funny, but not necessary, The true Goal of a pvper is becoming better and win more costantly.
They enjoy playng / interacting between them, even if when you look them from outside they seem trashtalking each other.

PvMers Tamers like to be farming, collecting, achiving goals, having Biggers houses and Stronger pets, they enjoy interacting each other, even if they seems hating / fighting at champs daily.

Thieves enjoy to steal, they hate others thieves in concorrence, but they like ineracting talking about what they steal with more thieves.

There is workers, they love to craft and sell and make big Cash, they hate other workers who sell kegs cheaper, but they still talk each other, interact, exchange bods / scripts to craft etc

Gamblers they love to gamble, they hate each other when they sit at poker, they trashtalk after bad beats, Sylvio and Firecrast prolly hate each other for the concurrence they have, but im sure they are friends and they been exchaning ideas multiple times.

Fishermen love to fish and stay in the sea...but wont like other fishermen scripting in theyr area..but they still share infos and help each other

i'd be continuing more becouse uo is a damn great and deep game with many cathegorizes... but i think you get what i mean:
ALL RUN NICE AND SMOOTH IN THE SHARD LIFE until people stays / interacts with other people with similars interests, that's why only real problem is when PvPers in the call,with best pets,best talis and goodies, go inside dungeon and start interacting with Pvmers, butchering them at 50 seconds from the boss Death.

 

[girana]

I think the abuse card is far too over played, every single idea can be downplayed with the abuse card, there are no perfect systems. Instanced PvP is one way to control the field (not that I want that), also systems to build reputation, or currency based on PvP could also work, if laid out properly, and the rewards weren't a get rich quick scheme.

Using that currency towards in game aesthetic or house deco purchases, would actually provide incentive for many. it's just the matter of working towards something daily. I know many a Knight who'd quiver over the thoughts of having a decked out Knights castle with banners, and armor/weapon stands, lining the walls...

The reality is, instead of throwing away every idea because of the abuse card, list the ways they can be abused, so we can try to formulate counters towards it? Saying something won't work, or it'll be abused doesn't further any discussions, and if the goal isn't to further the discussion, what's the point of speaking up?

the abuse card is VERY important because its about protecting the whole economy of the shard.


Instanced PvP sounds fine on paper but we missing at least 8-12k active players for that be even reasonable solution.


If you dont want me play the abuse card just give a full system that is save against abuse .

 

[AreYouKidden]

I've seen several systems laid out, including my own potential militias system, your only response girana, is always, too easy to abuse. Again, list how it can be abused, and we can work towards how to limit the abuse. And I do agree abuse/economy, it's very important, however there are ways around protecting the economy, without turning down ideas.

• Rewards could be character/account bound, can't do much damage with items you are working towards, if you can't sell them.
• Rewards could only have an effect on the system they are being given for.. (ie. PvP rewards, for PvP'rs.. PvP mounts.. PvP Shrouds.. etc..)
• the rewards can be extremely lengthy for people to achieve, so not everyone can get them

 

[girana]

3) Beauty of uo is freedom my friend, people choose to do whatever they want, and what cathegory of player be, i remember first tiem i installed uo as a kid, 'Where will you go?' 'What will you do?' were the first message when installation begin.



PvPers enjoy the fight, and they enjoy playng with people just for the fun of the fights, and the competition involved.
they don't need a goal to be achieved, they need a team, and opposite teams, and a random goal to meet them, if there is a cool preety well
designed Base to raid / defend is even more funny, but not necessary, The true Goal of a pvper is becoming better and win more costantly.
They enjoy playng / interacting between them, even if when you look them from outside they seem trashtalking each other.

you say you like the freedom of UO so why you want cut the freedom down with
stupid rules.


if pvper really would just want to fight why they are not just doing it ?

the truth is MOST PVPer ONLY want to win and if the chance for the win isnt big enough they just log off or cry in discord for changes to make their playstyle stronger.

 

[AreYouKidden]

the truth is MOST PVPer ONLY want to win and if the chance for the win isnt big enough they just log off or cry in http://discord.uoforever.com for changes to make their playstyle stronger.

I think that's true for many of the elitists... The reality is, we don't even field the majority of players on UOF, my guess is because there is no incentive to go to field. Because the theory that people just want the fight, as you've said many times, isn't enough.

You also have to consider that people who play UO, a game full of choice & freedom's, a game that allows you to buy a piece of it's land, and call it your own. A place to call home, have goals to achieve and with most goals, they often require gold. Gold requires farming, which in UOF's UO requires talismans. Which require time. The majority of people spending their time on PvM goals, might actually PvP once or twice a week if there was some sort of incentive to. The reality is, the incentive is there for PvM. And you can't tell me that people don't abuse the crap out of the PvM systems, even when based on RNG. The incentive is not there for PvP, you go up against elites, you lose, and you lose, and you lose, and in the end, you've got nothing to show for it, but a negative on the balance sheet. Even when you do start winning, so you've broken even, to me that's a negative on the balance sheet, because I could have accomplished much more PvM.

UO is an open world PvP game, that no one appears to want to PvP in (not counting the 1% that actually field).. Don't you think there's a reason for it? Don't you think there's also a reason there are more reds PvP'n (read killing PvM toons, and getting rich), than there are Militias PvP'n?

 

[girana]

UO is an open world PvP game, that no one appears to want to PvP in (not counting the 1% that actually field).. Don't you think there's a reason for it? Don't you think there's also a reason there are more reds PvP'n (read killing PvM toons, and getting rich), than there are Militias PvP'n?

the reason is UO is not a PvP game.

Its a full sandbox mmo PvP is and was always only a tiny part of it.

 

[Manfro]

3) what is the incentive? I'm a PvP'r who has been PvM'n for a year because there are systems in place that allow me to work towards a goal.. (talismans, contracts..). To own blessed armor does nothing for me.. I want to build towards something? I want my time and effort to be rewarded.

are you sure you are a pvper? ask youself that, becouse if you like pvp, that does not make you a pvper, your main goal describes what kind of player you are my friend, if you like to achive goals,and house decos, as you said, more than stayng in pits ding all day for learning pvp better and better you should see what im talking about--> It's important that ONLY THE PLAYERS of that cathegorize talk/suggest ideas about it, becouse otherwise people will start mixing interst of theyr own stuff, I'd go to pvm roundtable and promoting no stats for pks / gheal wands for pk etc ofc tryng to put advantage to my cathegory like girana is tryng to do here in this tread, typing useless confusional crap messages


I hate to say it mate, but blaming others for your own failings makes you lose credibility too, though that's neither here nor there..

Never hate yourself for sayng what you think, as you see i finished my message sayng 'It's clearly my bad, if i let troll making me hungry' so i blame only my self, as you see girana is still here trolling/spamming every single message and i dont really care

 

[Manfro]

you say you like the freedom of UO so why you want cut the freedom down with
stupid rules.

those rules are made to cut only abusers and trolls, the fact that you are here fullday costantly trolling / sayng they are stupid, it means they are very solid.

 

[K A Z]

the only thing I agree with is that you shouldnt be able to quit and rejoin militia all the time.. other than that it sounds as if you've not put too much thought into your suggestions + are missing the point of having militias. I also don't think that adding some kind of a "cap" to any faction/militia/whatever in a MMORPG (in which due to its nature the biggest group should always have the advantage) is a good idea.

 

[AreYouKidden]

are you sure you are a pvper? ask youself that, becouse if you like pvp, that does not make you a pvper, your main goal describes what kind of player you are my friend, if you like to achive goals,and house decos, as you said, more than stayng in pits ding all day for learning pvp better and better you should see what im talking about--> It's important that ONLY THE PLAYERS of that cathegorize talk/suggest ideas about it, becouse otherwise people will start mixing interst of theyr own stuff, I'd go to pvm roundtable and promoting no stats for pks / gheal wands for pk etc ofc tryng to put advantage to my cathegory like girana is tryng to do here in this tread, typing useless confusional crap messages

Your kidding me right? So because I don't focus all my time, or have the experience you require to have a viable opinion, my opinion no longer counts? That's an elitist attitude right there, and honestly removes credibility yet again. If only the players who are using the systems, talk about it, you'll never grow it to more than what it is.

Also, suggesting that I've only got my own interests in mind, is a shot against my character, which I take offense to, because anyone will tell you it's not what I'm about. I am putting out unbiased suggestions to try to grow an area of the game that is currently under performing, and under developed, an area that I'd like to participate more in, however I can't justify my limited gaming time to it, because I don't feel I get the satisfaction out of the current systems in place. There is every reason for a player like myself to talk about it.

I consider myself a PvP'r, because I enjoy, and thrive on PvP.. I'm not exclusive to PvP, but being a casual PvP'r, who would rather PvP, if I felt there was more incentive to do so, shouldn't rule me out of the discussion on what would/could work for a PvP system. Your PvP world isn't growing, it's shrinking. Consider that your PvP world consists of 30-40 players regularly (if that)... Don't you want to see it bigger? Your suggestion does nothing to grow it. It's the same things that have been in place for countless years.

 

[Manfro]

Your kidding me right? So because I don't focus all my time, or have the experience you require to have a viable opinion, my opinion no longer counts? That's an elitist attitude right there, and honestly removes credibility yet again. If only the players who are using the systems, talk about it, you'll never grow it to more than what it is.

Also, suggesting that I've only got my own interests in mind, is a shot against my character, which I take offense to, because anyone will tell you it's not what I'm about. I am putting out unbiased suggestions to try to grow an area of the game that is currently under performing, and under developed, an area that I'd like to participate more in, however I can't justify my limited gaming time to it, because I don't feel I get the satisfaction out of the current systems in place. There is every reason for a player like myself to talk about it.

I consider myself a PvP'r, because I enjoy, and thrive on PvP.. I'm not exclusive to PvP, but being a casual PvP'r, who would rather PvP, if I felt there was more incentive to do so, shouldn't rule me out of the discussion on what would/could work for a PvP system. Your PvP world isn't growing, it's shrinking. Consider that your PvP world consists of 30-40 players regularly (if that)... Don't you want to see it bigger? Your suggestion does nothing to grow it. It's the same things that have been in place for countless years.

it's not Etilist is smart organization, have people who are expert and focused on one cathegory to pick up suggest ideas for that spiecific cathegory , is like the basics of every kind of democracy government out in the world my friend, i bet there must be a good reason for that.
Shoud not be greatest-most dedicated workers guilds suggesting idea of how vendor system should work?
Should not be greatest dedicated fisher/pirates guild suggesting idea of how sea system should work?
Why letting dedicated pvpers decide about OUR cathegory is bad???

Stop using this stupid word Elite when talkin about pvpers,is 2018 i don't say Werkt is elitist pvmers and Sylvio is elitist gambler, ris is elitist sea masters etc etc etc we should use the word: Dedicated, the concept of Elitism splits, Dedication Connects.

i consider myself a casual pvmer, and i still die everytime at akor / fafnir never i'd suggest to have them weaker and easier, becouse i understand that it's just my fault, i've not really interst in that, that's why i'll never learn that 4 special moves they do!!

i'm really sorry if you considered it as an offence, there is nothing bad being part of a cathegory anyway, we all do or we tend to one, or we like to be in more... but there is not a better cathgory, or a cooler one, we are all just differents humans beings, and it's what make world a exciting place to live.

 

[girana]

it's not Etilist is smart organization, have people who are expert and focused on one cathegory to pick up suggest ideas for that spiecific cathegory , is like the basics of every kind of democracy government out in the world my friend, i bet there must be a good reason for that.
Shoud not be greatest-most dedicated workers guilds suggesting idea of how vendor system should work?
Should not be greatest dedicated fisher/pirates guild suggesting idea of how sea system should work?
Why letting dedicated pvpers decide about OUR cathegory is bad???

A) lobbying its pretty much the biggest problem democracys got .
B) no they should not
C) no they should not
D) because there not "OUR" category in UO

those rules are made to cut only abusers and trolls, the fact that you are here fullday costantly trolling / sayng they are stupid, it means they are very solid.

1. i dont troll at all.
2. these rules dont work against anything other than cuting freedom down.

are you sure you are a pvper? ask youself that, becouse if you like pvp, that does not make you a pvper, your main goal describes what kind of player you are my friend, if you like to achive goals,and house decos, as you said, more than stayng in pits ding all day for learning pvp better and better you should see what im talking about--> It's important that ONLY THE PLAYERS of that cathegorize talk/suggest ideas about it, becouse otherwise people will start mixing interst of theyr own stuff, I'd go to pvm roundtable and promoting no stats for pks / gheal wands for pk etc ofc tryng to put advantage to my cathegory like girana is tryng to do here in this tread, typing useless confusional crap messages

sorry i understand in your world running around on sallos and pressing target cloesest is the only way how pvper should play.

but thats not how it is there is no way you cant allowed someone to call himself a pvper.

 

[Manfro]

the only thing I agree with is that you shouldnt be able to quit and rejoin militia all the time.. other than that it sounds as if you've not put too much thought into your suggestions + are missing the point of having militias. I also don't think that adding some kind of a "cap" to any faction/militia/whatever in a MMORPG (in which due to its nature the biggest group should always have the advantage) is a good idea.

I'm Missing the point of having militia, yes of course i do, if a guild wanted to fight another guild and enjoy small numbered fights,they could have WAR, run a smaller guild for warring purpose and war all the others guild who want to fight them,or just ask set up a fight and ask 'lets go to bux' via discords (Yea KAz, Discords not only for your 20 cents shittalk) militia didnt add anything in game,it only upgraded the warring system and demolished factions wich was a pubblic pvp system ( if it affects regs price is a PUBBLIC thing) and turn it to private/guilds related.

 

[Manfro]

Kaz Chaos / Order is gone, Factions is gone, they were the only 2 public pvp systems.
Warring guild was a private pvp instrument and it's been upgraded to Militia.

If i'am the only one seeing that, maybe there's really no hope for pvp in this shard left.

 

[girana]

Kaz Chaos / Order is gone, Factions is gone, they were the only 2 public pvp systems.
Warring guild was a private pvp instrument and it's been upgraded to Militia.

If i'am the only one seeing that, maybe there's really no hope for pvp in this shard left.

militia pvp is public too everyone can join if he wants.

 

[AreYouKidden]

Kaz Chaos / Order is gone, Factions is gone, they were the only 2 public pvp systems.
Warring guild was a private pvp instrument and it's been upgraded to Militia.

If i'am the only one seeing that, maybe there's really no hope for pvp in this shard left.

Warring Guilds - is a private PvP instrument, it has not been upgraded, it required you to send a war request, and accept it, it was a very cumbersome system, that required everyone in your guild to war.

Militias is a public PvP system that you opt into, so you are available to PvP with all other guilds, while remaining in your current guild. It IS factions, just with many more factions, and if they re-instituted the 10 man active limit, it creates more of a balance on the field, so one does not become dominant with numbers.

What all 3 of these systems are lacking, Order/Chaos, Factions, Militias, are actual activities.. Aside from being able to PvP - what pulls PvP'rs together.. the gruesome? It'd work if there were worthwhile things to buy with your bounty points. There needs to be some sort of event that gets people out playing daily.

PS. The word elitist gets used, when a "dedicated" person starts dismissing another persons arguments, based on the assumption they don't have the experience to qualify an opinion. Dedicated is not the same as elitist. I'm quite happy to have debates with dedicated players, they at least listen to opinions and judge them based on the merits of the opinions, and not the credentials.

 

[Manfro]

Warring Guilds - is a private PvP instrument, it has not been upgraded, it required you to send a war request, and accept it, it was a very cumbersome system, that required everyone in your guild to war.

Militias is a public PvP system that you opt into, so you are available to PvP with all other guilds, while remaining in your current guild. It IS factions, just with many more factions, and if they re-instituted the 10 man active limit, it creates more of a balance on the field, so one does not become dominant with numbers.

What all 3 of these systems are lacking, Order/Chaos, Factions, Militias, are actual activities.. Aside from being able to PvP - what pulls PvP'rs together.. the gruesome? It'd work if there were worthwhile things to buy with your bounty points. There needs to be some sort of event that gets people out playing daily.

PS. The word elitist gets used, when a "dedicated" person starts dismissing another persons arguments, based on the assumption they don't have the experience to qualify an opinion. Dedicated is not the same as elitist. I'm quite happy to have debates with dedicated players, they at least listen to opinions and judge them based on the merits of the opinions, and not the credentials.

When i say pubblic i mean that may be used by unknown players, who randomly join fight together, just becouse they have joined the same faction. This is very important, very very very IMPORTANT, for many reasons.. as a game designer i don't expect everyone to se all the several reasons why public is good in mmorpg, and i dont want to write a book of 50 pages, so i'll say jsut the 2 more importants:

1) factions has a chance to connect unknown players each time they plya factions, (bill dont know jhon, but if they in same faction sooner or later they'll be running from/chasing same enemies, so faction helped bill and jhon to connect each other and become friends)
2) factions will allow 20 vs 20 enjoyable fights, when militia wont, here comes a bit more tecnic so only dedicated pvpers wil totally understand that:

a 20 vs 20 fight on militia = 20 people on the call vs 20 people on the call, Newplayers or non sallos users will not be welcome,Uo becomes clicking one single button and running until next explo weaken rails comes out. basically unplayable.

a 20 vs 20 fight on Faction system = 6 ppl on call with other 5 ppl on the call with other 9 ppl on the call VS 7 ppl with 6 ppl with 6 ppl with 2 ppl
That will be still a 20 vs 20 but since there is 8 teams involved instead of 2, the fight will be enjoyable and spectacular, it will let EVERY ONE take part of it (not only mages. not only sallos with aquire target) so also Casual Pvper will defintly enjoy it a lot.
That how you incentivate ppl partecipaing.

Please consider me as a dedicated person, i've never said any of your ideas were wrong, or uncorrect, (i found the idea of recleaning punkte ladders every 2 monthes REALLY good) never dismissed a single idea you purpose, i respect you and im again sorry if i offended you somehow. I only think that more knowledge / experience you have in something, better ideas suggestions you'll find out for it.