Diversifying Mage PvP

[drasked]

What the hell are you talking about? I did answer it directly, and in length. If you want me to expand, no problem, but don't play this "dancing around answering it" nonsense.

1 - Bad mechanics: marathon running being allowed and explosion potions not splashing are two of my very least favorite. If potions splashed, they wouldn't be viable in town, and a variety of other mage builds would be used. A "meta mage build" exists for 1v1, and that should never be the case. I've always felt that there should be a rock-paper-scissors feel to mage PvP, and that's completely lacking here. I also don't feel that the casual PvPer has a place on UOF, and I think that's a huge oversight. (I dislike how certain assist programs provide advantages in PvP, but that's not a mechanic.)

2 - What? My statement was self-explanatory: off-screening in a consensual 2v2 is accepted, and that's trashy.

3 - I'm completely against features that reduce the player's need to react to situations (an example: the "heal/cure" hotkey that auto-targets self, which makes spamming that button a legitimate survival tactic). Assist programs also made it vastly easier to manage ones items, including potions: potion spam (and, of course, auto cure scripts) have significantly changed UO PvP.

Some examples.

"marathon running being allowed" is not a specific mechanic.

Explo pots not splashing on non-combat flagged people was probably done to make pvp in guardzones less awkward. I remember other shards that did have it and other than people doing wonky shit like dismounting to get ppl guard whacked, the meta was the same. Seems like a very niche mechanic to have a major problem with. If you don't like explo pots just say it and argue why.

You feeling that the casual pvper has no place on UOF is not a specific mechanic.

I do not see how a single video is relevant when discussing game mechanics, especially when you go in to the area of "e-honor"

Who uses a heal/cure hotkey that auto target self, that sounds ********?

Not exactly sure what you mean by "potion spam" seems like a vague concept. I bet you could make an autocure on steam or even razor but not sallos. Unless you are cheating of course, hard to balance game mechanics around cheating.

All i do is pvp on this shard and you are saying some outlandish shit my friend.

 

[Winstonian]

"marathon running being allowed" is not a specific mechanic.

Explo pots not splashing on non-combat flagged people was probably done to make pvp in guardzones less awkward. I remember other shards that did have it and other than people doing wonky shit like dismounting to get ppl guard whacked, the meta was the same. Seems like a very niche mechanic to have a major problem with. If you don't like explo pots just say it and argue why.

You feeling that the casual pvper has no place on UOF is not a specific mechanic.

I do not see how a single video is relevant when discussing game mechanics, especially when you go in to the area of "e-honor"

Who uses a heal/cure hotkey that auto target self, that sounds ********?

Not exactly sure what you mean by "potion spam" seems like a vague concept. I bet you could make an autocure on steam or even razor but not sallos. Unless you are cheating of course, hard to balance game mechanics around cheating.

All i do is pvp on this shard and you are saying some outlandish shit my friend.

What? I think the mechanics associated with my concerns are obvious. The justification for expl potions is running. Instead of fixing the problem (running), it creates another (constant dependency on expl potions). And the "wonky shit" that happened was called "a counter to expl pot spam", and the reason why people couldn't throw them in town. I'm not even advocating that expl potions be removed, just that there be another skill that makes that build as powerful as it is, evening the field and creating far more mage build diversity. (Which I've argued numerous times, yet you seem to be ignoring here.)

Not all of my complaints were mechanics related, which I also thought was clear. The casual PvPer has no place on UOF, and that should be a huge issue to anyone who wants this shard to last and grow. My point about the video was that off-screening in a consensual duel is not only acceptable, but encouraged. Running here should be its own form of PvP. (Because, well, it sort of is anyway.)

"Can't do it on Sallos, unless you are cheating of course..." yeah, exactly. As has been seen in the past, many players have cheated, and many likely still are. It's another downside of the assist programs.

Love the closing line. You can't dispute anything I'm saying, but it's outlandish nonetheless. Running is toxic. The lack of viable mage 1v1 builds is toxic. Expl pot spam is toxic. And the lack of a PvP outlet for casual players isn't healthy for UOF.

 

[drasked]

What? I think the mechanics associated with my concerns are obvious. The justification for expl potions is running. Instead of fixing the problem (running), it creates another (constant dependency on expl potions). And the "wonky shit" that happened was called "a counter to expl pot spam", and the reason why people couldn't throw them in town.

No it's not obvious, that is why i asked you specificlally to tell me which mechanics you are having problems with and again you saying a whole lot of nothing other than some nonsense about explo pots being juistified because of running. You still havent told me your problem with explo pots btw.

I'm not even advocating that expl potions be removed, just that there be another skill that makes that build as powerful as it is, evening the field and creating far more mage build diversity. (Which I've argued numerous times, yet you seem to be ignoring here.)

Stun alchy mage is preferred in 1v1 because none of the other mage templates (other than tamer) have enough kill power to realistically kill a decent player. You could definitly perceive this as an issue, but making explo pots get you guardwhacked in town unless you give up another 100 skills points is no solution.

"Can't do it on Sallos, unless you are cheating of course..." yeah, exactly. As has been seen in the past, many players have cheated, and many likely still are. It's another downside of the assist programs.

Cheating is cheating. Not much more to say about it. I personally dont suspect any of the top player of cheating.

Love the closing line. You can't dispute anything I'm saying, but it's outlandish nonetheless.

I disputed everything you have said (it hasnt been much so far) thoroughly.

In the end there you slipped and got specific and said stuff like:

"an example: the "heal/cure" hotkey that auto-targets self, which makes spamming that button a legitimate survival tactic). Assist programs also made it vastly easier to manage ones items, including potions: potion spam (and, of course, auto cure scripts) have significantly changed UO PvP."

The more specific you get the more it shows you are just talking nonsense.

 

[K A Z]

not sure where he gets all his information from.. I have all kinds of mages I like to play (tamer mage, alchy mage, scribe mage, healmageS).. I also love to play dexxers too! I EVEN HAVE A PVP ARCHER WHO DOES JUST FINE. I honestly can't remember another freeshard that had so many PVP templates you could actually chose and be somewhat successful with.

 

[Winstonian]

not sure where he gets all his information from.. I have all kinds of mages I like to play (tamer mage, alchy mage, scribe mage, healmageS).. I also love to play dexxers too! I EVEN HAVE A PVP ARCHER WHO DOES JUST FINE. I honestly can't remember another freeshard that had so many PVP templates you could actually chose and be somewhat successful with.

YOU do. That means absolutely nothing. Just because an exception exists doesn't mean that the rule isn't established. The clear majority of mage PvPers run stun and throw expl potions here. It's not even my words... drasked (or someone else in one of these conversations) called it the meta mage build and seemed dumbfounded that someone would run anything else.

 

[Winstonian]

You still havent told me your problem with explo pots btw.

And in the VERY NEXT PARAGRAPH, I explained EXACTLY WHAT THAT PROBLEM IS. Ridiculous.

 

[Peav]

YOU do. That means absolutely nothing. Just because an exception exists doesn't mean that the rule isn't established. The clear majority of mage PvPers run stun and throw expl potions here. It's not even my words... drasked (or someone else in one of these conversations) called it the meta mage build and seemed dumbfounded that someone would run anything else.

Reading all this, I just think that you're trying to change a core game design which can't really be changed. There is a word called 'meta' meaning Most Effective Tactic Available where one template is better than the others. All of the MMORPG games had their era of specific metas which comparing to the other ones had the biggest win rate or impact in the game. The stun mechanic was always a top skill to use in terms of defending and being on offence. Theres a reason there is a term called defensive stun on this game. Explosion pots with alchemy bonus can be literally played by all templates and it doesn't matter unless you miss all of your pots or kill yourself to your own.

You have to realize this servers % of good alchemy mages is really low and the only way to beat those is to learn the template and being better at it. You can easily beat a mediocre alchy stun mage with a dexxer by just playing around his mana pool with your gheal pots/wands/bandages and counter attacking on when you're not in the threat of being lethally damaged.

When it comes to your perspective of one meta template being the most successful and marathon running or the lack of staying on screen during fights, nerfing stun in any way to make the best meta template to be more average than the others would result in more hours of running because you cannot lock down a target. Having stun is the key of trading spells on screen or staying on screen you can also counterplay scribe reflection enemy stun lockdowns to trade cross synchs with you being victorious.

The meta on this server wasn't that from point 1. Before people running scribe or alchemy people ran heal mages for group pvp where the kiting and offscreening was made for a teamfights to last 10minutes, literally. Alchemy pot bonus on enemy team countered the healing from bandages and now it was the most viable template until wands came in with scribe reflects etc. I know you're focusing more on the 1v1 perspective of alchy stun but there is no hidden RNG or luck in it. It has been proven time after time that the better you are at alchemy, you will beat your enemy even on their alchemist.

Summing this up, I really think you are just not adapting well or successfully of what meta templates are on this server or all around gaming. Making complaints about such things only shows how better people are at adapting to meta comparing to you.

Sidenote: The only way to "Instead of fixing the problem (running), it creates another (constant dependency on expl potions). And the "wonky shit" that happened was called "a counter to expl pot spam", and the reason why people couldn't throw them in town."
Is to put mount stamina into the game, not change a template or the play style of it.

Hope you educate yourself with my feedback.

 

[K A Z]

YOU do. That means absolutely nothing. Just because an exception exists doesn't mean that the rule isn't established. The clear majority of mage PvPers run stun and throw expl potions here. It's not even my words... drasked (or someone else in one of these conversations) called it the meta mage build and seemed dumbfounded that someone would run anything else.

and so do the people I fight on a daily basis. I fight other templates every fucking day.. Be it some wonky ass para dexxer or some tankmages and whatnot.. theres more out there than "just alchy mages". And yea, Stun is pretty good on an UOR server. Just like insta-hit mages dominate T2A-Servers. That's the downside of being on a pre-AOS server.

 

[Winstonian]

You still havent told me your problem with explo pots btw.

And in the VERY NEXT PARAGRAPH, I explained EXACTLY WHAT THAT PROBLEM IS. Ridiculous.

Reading all this, I just think that you're trying to change a core game design which can't really be changed. There is a word called 'meta' meaning Most Effective Tactic Available where one template is better than the others. All of the MMORPG games had their era of specific metas which comparing to the other ones had the biggest win rate or impact in the game. The stun mechanic was always a top skill to use in terms of defending and being on offence. Theres a reason there is a term called defensive stun on this game. Explosion pots with alchemy bonus can be literally played by all templates and it doesn't matter unless you miss all of your pots or kill yourself to your own.

You have to realize this servers % of good alchemy mages is really low and the only way to beat those is to learn the template and being better at it. You can easily beat a mediocre alchy stun mage with a dexxer by just playing around his mana pool with your gheal pots/wands/bandages and counter attacking on when you're not in the threat of being lethally damaged.

When it comes to your perspective of one meta template being the most successful and marathon running or the lack of staying on screen during fights, nerfing stun in any way to make the best meta template to be more average than the others would result in more hours of running because you cannot lock down a target. Having stun is the key of trading spells on screen or staying on screen you can also counterplay scribe reflection enemy stun lockdowns to trade cross synchs with you being victorious.

The meta on this server wasn't that from point 1. Before people running scribe or alchemy people ran heal mages for group pvp where the kiting and offscreening was made for a teamfights to last 10minutes, literally. Alchemy pot bonus on enemy team countered the healing from bandages and now it was the most viable template until wands came in with scribe reflects etc. I know you're focusing more on the 1v1 perspective of alchy stun but there is no hidden RNG or luck in it. It has been proven time after time that the better you are at alchemy, you will beat your enemy even on their alchemist.

Summing this up, I really think you are just not adapting well or successfully of what meta templates are on this server or all around gaming. Making complaints about such things only shows how better people are at adapting to meta comparing to you.

Sidenote: The only way to "Instead of fixing the problem (running), it creates another (constant dependency on expl potions). And the "wonky shit" that happened was called "a counter to expl pot spam", and the reason why people couldn't throw them in town."
Is to put mount stamina into the game, not change a template or the play style of it.

Hope you educate yourself with my feedback.

Aside from the condescending tone in the last line, I liked this post.

I love the whole "adaption" thing. Really, people believe in adaption when the current meta fits their playstyle. I remember the emergence (and dominance) of tamers in PvP, and how the mage "PvP Elite" cried and complained for nerfs to tamers. "Adapt to my playstyle, don't you dare develop your own."

I don't have a problem with adaption. I've adapted just fine to current PvP: I have a nightmare archer, and he does pretty well for himself. I just have no incentive to go out and get ganked when there are plenty of other things to do.

But my point has always been this: if you fixed the issue of running (sure, mount fatigue as an option) and forced mages to decide between alchy or stun, wouldn't other mage builds compete for the top spot? Which do you think, if any, would dominate?

 

[K A Z]

And in the VERY NEXT PARAGRAPH, I explained EXACTLY WHAT THAT PROBLEM IS. Ridiculous.

Aside from the condescending tone in the last line, I liked this post.

I love the whole "adaption" thing. Really, people believe in adaption when the current meta fits their playstyle. I remember the emergence (and dominance) of tamers in PvP, and how the mage "PvP Elite" cried and complained for nerfs to tamers. "Adapt to my playstyle, don't you dare develop your own."

I don't have a problem with adaption. I've adapted just fine to current PvP: I have a nightmare archer, and he does pretty well for himself. I just have no incentive to go out and get ganked when there are plenty of other things to do.

But my point has always been this: if you fixed the issue of running (sure, mount fatigue as an option) and forced mages to decide between alchy or stun, wouldn't other mage builds compete for the top spot? Which do you think, if any, would dominate?

dexxers would reign supreme because nobody in their right mind would play a mage anymore?!

 

[Winstonian]

dexxers would reign supreme because nobody in their right mind would play a mage anymore?!

Ha. Which is a joke and you know it. Groups need their precast hanks.

You seem to hate the notion of "balancing". If, during testing, it was seen that dexers were dominating, they too could be tweaked to fall in line with other builds.

Or, you know, mages could just learn to adapt.

 

[K A Z]

Ha. Which is a joke and you know it. Groups need their precast hanks.

You seem to hate the notion of "balancing". If, during testing, it was seen that dexers were dominating, they too could be tweaked to fall in line with other builds.

Or, you know, mages could just learn to adapt.

so basically you're saying that we should totally change how UOFs pvp works so that a chosen few will (eventually, if by then they havent found another thing they could be mad about) grace us with their PVP attendance? I don't agree, tbh.

 

[Winstonian]

so basically you're saying that we should totally change how UOFs pvp works so that a chosen few will (eventually, if by then they havent found another thing they could be mad about) grace us with their PVP attendance? I don't agree, tbh.

Negative. I'm suggesting that all games, and especially games such as this, should be constantly seeking balance between builds. If one build emerges as the clear-cut best, tweaks should be tried to balance that build out with others. Pretty much all games do this.

 

[K A Z]

Negative. I'm suggesting that all games, and especially games such as this, should be constantly seeking balance between builds. If one build emerges as the clear-cut best, tweaks should be tried to balance that build out with others. Pretty much all games do this.

but there is this balance? I do not see your problem here, tbh. I've already told you that your assumptions about Alchymages are not right and so have others.. yet you keep on claiming that it's the go to template. In most situations a healmage or a scribemage is way better.. or a dexxer.

 

[Winstonian]

but there is this balance? I do not see your problem here, tbh. I've already told you that your assumptions about Alchymages are not right and so have others.. yet you keep on claiming that it's the go to template. In most situations a healmage or a scribemage is way better.. or a dexxer.

Strange... Peav essentially labeled alchy/stun the meta mage build, and others have outright called it that. Again, just because some guy runs different skills with relative success doesn't mean that a meta build doesn't exist.

Again, I'm not worried about it. I'll keep playing with my tamer and will likely avoid structured PvP until things seem more interesting. The current state of things appeals to a small percentage of the UOF population, which is fine.

 

[K A Z]

Strange... Peav essentially labeled alchy/stun the meta mage build, and others have outright called it that. Again, just because some guy runs different skills with relative success doesn't mean that a meta build doesn't exist.

Again, I'm not worried about it. I'll keep playing with my tamer and will likely avoid structured PvP until things seem more interesting. The current state of things appeals to a small percentage of the UOF population, which is fine.

it's the best mage built for a 1v1. Well, actually it fucking isn't even as the best PVP template is that fooked up 8x build where people have some healing, too. But that does NOT make it the best 1v1 template in the GAME or the best 1v1 template in ALL SITUATIONS. Just if it comes to 1v1 mage fights.

 

[Winstonian]

it's the best mage built for a 1v1. Well, actually it fucking isn't even as the best PVP template is that fooked up 8x build where people have some healing, too. But that does NOT make it the best 1v1 template in the GAME or the best 1v1 template in ALL SITUATIONS. Just if it comes to 1v1 mage fights.

... right. And so, in a game that changes frequently, and with tons of skills, it would be wise to constantly search for balance and improvement over what's currently out there. A universal assist program would be a great start. Not forcing someone to stun and throw pots in mage 1v1 would be another.

 

[Nappaca]

Meow meow

 

[Nekronos]

That nekronos guy had a pretty cool idea about fair poison buffs. He is pretty friendly, and handsome too.

 

[TyroneG]

Again, I'm not worried about it. I'll keep playing with my tamer and will likely avoid structured PvP until things seem more interesting.

In addition to this can you also avoid the PvP forums and any (terrible) suggestions regarding PvP?