A Possible Solution to The Problem of PvP

[Winstonian]

Course I did. It had a lovely rendition about a car race and discussing a pvm templates vs a pvp orientated one. .

I forgot that only you can reply to every post...

It also said things like "I MAYBE get pk'd once every 3-4 days now" and "I actually enjoy the cat and mouse game". He didn't need the typical "how to survive a PK attack" speech... he's making a different (and very clear) point.

 

[toddyboi]

You do realize you just reiterated exactly what I'm saying though right, in that there is no real challenge in that fight whatsoever. You yourself just admitted that an experienced player on a pvm template doesn't even stand a chance against a pk, so you've confirmed the fact that there is absolutely no risk for them.

And I'm not frustrated... I MAYBE get pk'd once every 3-4 days now, because I've adapted, chosen different spots, different playstyle. I also said up above that I actually enjoy the cat and mouse game, and if nothing changes it's not like I'm leaving. I'm trying to come up with options though to give the 'pvp'ers that want more pvp' some more pvp.

Think of it in some different aspects. Lets use cars for example.

You drive a nice ram1500 or something, not a shit vehicle by any means. But me... I drive a corvette, cuz my D is huge. I walk up to you and say we're racing for pinks, right now, and you have no say about it. Obviously there isn't a chance in hell a stock ram 1500 is going to beat a c7 corvette, but you're given absolutely no choice and no way to even the odds on that. You just lost your brand new 60k truck and there was nothing you could do, other then maybe get away in the half second before I said we're racing.

Now if you put in some handicap (like they do in bracket racing) then the truck has a chance. It may be given a 4-5 second headstart, but at the end, all things equal, the race SHOULD be a dead tie. I could still beat you, but I could also make just the tiniest of mistakes and lose to you, and then at that point you have your truck and my corvette. At least now there is actual competition involved in this, some skill is involved, and maybe you secretly test your reaction times on simulators or something, I don't know this going in. That makes me question trying to take every vehicle I see on the road....

So where does it all wrap back towards? Do you actually want PVP, or do you want free kills against pvm'ers who have no chance? (like even you stated in your post)

I militia buddy and hardly pk, I know if you took sometime to learn how to defend yourself you'll be so much better off.... a very old wise man named Fondler once said to my good elitist friend Peav..... it's ok to die in a video game.

 

[Zog'orium]

It also said things like "I MAYBE get pk'd once every 3-4 days now" and "I actually enjoy the cat and mouse game". He didn't need the typical "how to survive a PK attack" speech... he's making a different (and very clear) point.

That point is that he seldom gets pk'd and enjoys the pk hunt. Looks clear to me.

 

[K A Z]

Lol I can't type for shit and didn't bother to proof read but yeah you get the message.

Even without rewards I still did events for fun...for a while...but I hit my limit. Events still need basic functional things fixed within them. Very basic things. I have hit staff up with several good suggestions and fixes that literally no one in their right mind could argue with...but I got nothin.

But yeah I think that's the kind of PvP that motivates me and that I want to see. Militia isn't as hot as you act like it is.

I have no idea what you're talking about, but you seem like the kind of person that enjoys your PvP'ing to consist of ridiculous wrong roof anything goes challenges accompanied by large colorful text anyway. Am I...wrong?

Heh-heh

Then fucking make them hold CTFs more often so that you an acquire more pokemon eggs by literally doing.. nothing? I do not think that events, in which you risk _nothing_ should give out the big rewards they did (special colored shoes and spellbooks etc. you could only acquire via [eventscore) but I couldn't really care less. Militia is pretty hot IMO. It helps a lot with champ spawns, you can buy reags cheap as fuck, you can bless weapons, soon maybe armor too and there is more to come. It's really rewarding for me, the guild I play with and the other 3-4 groups we battle every week.

And not specifically kaz, maybe to a degree, but some ppl must be content to just migrate guild to guild and server to server to where people are and then find something to complain about and fall off the map entirely when things aren't going in their favor or if there's mechanics they don't like. Wands, bolas, stun tamers, alchy archers, whatever flavor of field tamers that you find unpalatable make sure and let it be known. But on the same hand, heaven forbid people suggest a way around that?

I don't really care about the opinions of short-timers who don't want whatever cheap shit it is that they're doing to be fucked with. I think that is ultimately what it comes down to for a lot of the vocal peoples.

still mad that I tried out another server two years ago? I'll even admit: I played other servers before I played UOF. Am I married to this Shard? No. Is it the only Shard that in my eyes has potential? YES.

KAZ... come on now. Take a deep breath.

You keep arguing about the incentives for PvP right now, yet casual players and PvMers still don't participate. Why? Because getting ganked by PvP groups simply isn't appealing, and that time could be spent far more constructively. Of course, this logic is lost on you, but it's not lost on the majority of players here.

As Bromista eloquently pointed out, you rage about suggestions that give YOU more players to kill and give YOU significant rewards at the end. If the streets were flooded with bodies to loot, as you clearly enjoy doing, then you'd benefit from this suggestion the most.

More activity. More loot. More shard participation. And a chance at scaling rewards. Keep yelling about any suggestion that caters to "fucking pvmers", but this benefits PvPers the most.

So now its the big pvp groups that are a problem? I'll share a secret with you: I get ganked too. Most likely more than most of you who are complaining. It's a part of the SANDBOX, it's a part of OPEN WORLD, it's a part of ULTIMA ONLINE. It's not a fair game, do not try to fucking force shit on people, its disgusting. If people think dying in UO is bad for them that nothings gonna change that. A few weeks into a new "trammel pvp zone" where there are rewards and theyll stop playing that, too simply because they do not want to die. It's a mentality problem and you're not going to fix that with any ruleset changes. I dont need no fucking rewards for PVP, I think it's fun and definitely better than hunting brainless AI mobs.

 

[Winstonian]

Force shit? What are you talking about?

In the end of the day, whatever man. If you don't want more targets to kill and bodies to loot, that's fine with me. I'll stick to the stuff I do, and others will do the same. Right now, there's no option for the casual PvPer, and changing that would grow this shard tremendously.

 

[Peav]

I militia buddy and hardly pk, I know if you took sometime to learn how to defend yourself you'll be so much better off.... a very old wise man named Fondler once said to my good elitist friend Peav..... it's ok to die in a video game.

 

[K A Z]

Force shit? What are you talking about?

In the end of the day, whatever man. If you don't want more targets to kill and bodies to loot, that's fine with me. I'll stick to the stuff I do, and others will do the same. Right now, there's no option for the casual PvPer, and changing that would grow this shard tremendously.

casual PVPers can go to brit bridge, can go to buccs (okay, that shit has close to no PVP), can have a red with which they stir shit up, can join militias and pvp during the slow hours of the day or they could....

MAKE TWO GUILDS AND WAR EACH OTHER (not gonna happen)

 

[Bromista]

I didn't mean that personally that goes for plenty of players.

Fact is it's 2018, players have their reasons for coming and going. Players don't need to be bashed for saying hey maybe it'd be nice to get something tangible for time spent. No one's expecting it for PvP, it'd just be...awful nice?

Until then PvM trammy grind it is sounds rad

 

[Winstonian]

casual PVPers can go to brit bridge, can go to buccs (okay, that shit has close to no PVP), can have a red with which they stir shit up, can join militias and pvp during the slow hours of the day or they could....

MAKE TWO GUILDS AND WAR EACH OTHER (not gonna happen)

I'm actually exploring a three-way guild war thing with casual players. The issue is that those players don't have an incentive right now anyway, so the interest would be minimal.

I just don't understand why a member of the "PvP Elite" wouldn't want more (easy) targets to kill.

 

[K A Z]

I'm actually exploring a three-way guild war thing with casual players. The issue is that those players don't have an incentive right now anyway, so the interest would be minimal.

I just don't understand why a member of the "PvP Elite" wouldn't want more (easy) targets to kill.

Cool, so maybe they just dont like PVP or UO if they only play when theres a reward other than enjoyment??

Why would I want easy targets? I thought PKing was so frowned upon because PKs only pick on noobs and that elitist pvpers like myself should rather play Militia where the skill-level is more even????

 

[Winstonian]

Cool, so maybe they just dont like PVP or UO if they only play when theres a reward other than enjoyment??

Why would I want easy targets? I thought PKing was so frowned upon because PKs only pick on noobs and that elitist pvpers like myself should rather play Militia where the skill-level is more even????

Or, they don't like PvP HERE. You keep ignoring that. A lot of players come here and see things in PvP that they don't like, therefore there's no incentive in getting ganked in PvP when they can just make cash PvMing.

Second paragraph: no one said that.

 

[Zog'orium]

I didn't mean that personally that goes for plenty of players.

Fact is it's 2018, players have their reasons for coming and going. Players don't need to be bashed for saying hey maybe it'd be nice to get something tangible for time spent. No one's expecting it for PvP, it'd just be...awful nice?

Until then PvM trammy grind it is sounds rad

It one thing to make a suggestion. It's another to constantly nag about it, posting and posting and creating threads harping about the same thing.

 

[Winstonian]

It one thing to make a suggestion. It's another to constantly nag about it, posting and posting and creating threads harping about the same thing.

I tend to create one thread per topic or idea and remain in that thread. It seems strange that you, who clearly doesn't want to read this "constant nagging", would remain "in these threads" reading "posts and posts" about the "same thing". Exercise some free will and ignore these threads then?

 

[Kyain]

and to add. If PVM guilds (and most of you guys ARE fucking pvmers) would start to DEFEND their champ spawns (OR their fellow PVMers) there would even be more reward! 35k per head! (OR the guy gets super pissed off because youve just ruined his char for 48 hours!!!) SECURED powerscrolls! You've just successfully defended your champ spawn and not a single scroll was lost!

But nah, we need new systems and then eventually our kewl pvmers will PVP too because it'd be "more rewarding". Fact is that none of y'all would ever start to PVP because you cannot stand dying in UO.

I think you're reading far too much into what I'm saying or you're triggered for some unknown reason.

I will make a simplified list of one sentence suggestions to reduce the level of comprehension required to follow this.

1) No trammel and no safe zones. Never requested, not required, would ruin the game, I think we agree on this
2) I'm not particularly keen on more rewards for PVP, and honestly think adding that could be bad as then it feels required to all. (Again I think overall we agree here)
3) Adding additional meaningful PVP encounters by giving a pvm'er an actual chance to fight back (I'll explain it a bit more below).
4) Honestly, if the playing field was leveled, I would suggest all negatives be removed for murderers (i.e. no stat loss) if it was a fair even fight, and they incurred risk in their activity proportionate to the rewards they were getting (the loot for a few seconds of work)

So going a bit further with point 3, as it sits now, and it's been reiterated and confirmed multiple times over, a pvm character has 0 chance against a pk when it rolls up on it. He is literally a loot pinata, get away or lose what you're carrying. I'm a newbie, I've only been here for a handful of weeks now and need to be doing pvm to get gold/resources to where I could even make a pvp char if I wanted. pvm'ers are also a large part (definitely majority) of the community. I was a seasoned UO vet back in the day, back with dread lords with no negatives at all (other then not going to town) so it was even more rampant back then, and I know how to survive and move around it, but not everybody does. I also want to add that I know of 3-4 other guys that started around the same time I did, and none of them log on anymore because of the ridiculous amount of pk's during prime time.

So I go back to my order/chaos/neutral idea here. And hear me out KAZ, because I think you might actually like some of it assuming you actually want pvp fights.

You're a PK, I'm neutral. I cannot attack you, even with you being red, but I can defend myself. You are free to attack me whenever you wish, but when you do I essentially get AR and magic damage mitigation buffs to where I don't instantly melt and have a chance to fight back. Now I'm still a pvm template, currently a provo/tamer, so unless I can get my pets to corner you I still really have nothing to fight back with other then a baseline of 100 magery (and lets be honest, pets are pretty stupid and hard to get changed onto a different target when there are other monsters it's already fighting). That said, my damage bonus and mitigation buffs only help offset the fact that I'm not a PVP template at all, and not stacking alchy with explo pots with poisoning in my template with dp kryss and so on.

Now if I'm putting myself at risk, not at full health, just took a flamestrike from an ogre mage or something, I'm still a quick easy kill. If I'm full health and stocked up, it's a fight on your hands. If you were a stealth archer you could just wait in the wings for a guy to be inundated before you attacked, but if that bandage heals him back up right as you attack, again, you're in for a hell of a fight.

The choice is still 100% in your hands about the engagement. Hell if you found a guy in deceit or something that wrecks you 3-4 times you could CHOOSE not to attack him, and he could not do a single thing to you because he's neutral.

My whole thought process here isn't to nullify pvp, or kill off pk's, or make trammie safe again. It's trying to create more meaningful pvp encounters on a daily basis. I haven't done militia, so I have no comments on it as far as incentives and all go, but generally I'm against making any one specific activity required in a game, especially a game like UO. You should militia because you want to, not because it gives you uber item x. I also don't take issue with Militia because it's consentual pvp, and should be pvp focused characters on each side to turn it into a battle of skill or numbers. (though if blue wallers or healers and shit are a thing that should automatically flag them for militia members). While no militia experience, I frequently pop through areas of dungeons for quick kills/loot, and as soon as I see a red name flash on screen I'm out of there whether mobs are dead or not, because there is 0% chance of me coming out of that encounter alive. If I had a chance in the fight, I'd stick it out and actually give you a fight, and win or lose, I personally would still enjoy it.

So the question remains here. Do you actually want more meaningful PVP on the server, or do you want to maintain the ability to have easy kills whenever you want while pk'ing. Either answer is fine, it's UO, there's no rules, and these are only suggestions. Plenty of us know exactly how to work and play inside the current ruleset.

 

[AreYouKidden]

To fix the issue, I think the issue first needs to be identified.

In my opinion, the PvP on UOF is lacking for the same reason that PvM on UOF is thriving: incentive. The incentive to PvM on this server is vast because the payoff is also vast: the PvM content is outstanding, and the potential reward for time spent makes that time well spent.

That current exchange is lacking in PvP, but it doesn't have to.

The idea: daily/weekly rewards based on the total amount of damage done against other players in consensual PvP.

..... .....

I think something like this would significantly increase the amount of casual, consensual PvP.

I read threads like this, where everyone get's passionate, and animated, and sometimes I think the original premise behind why the thread was posted gets lost. This started out as incentive for consensual PvP, and seems to have degraded into PvP in general, PvP'rs vs. PvM templates.. PK'n... how do people get so far off track?

I don't understand how anyone who currently does Militias, a form of competitive, consensual PvP - with literally no incentives (blessed weapons, champ score stone, and reagent stone? come on...) could be against a more flushed out Militias system, that would attract more people? I would love for someone to explain this to me.

 

[K A Z]

Or, they don't like PvP HERE. You keep ignoring that. A lot of players come here and see things in PvP that they don't like, therefore there's no incentive in getting ganked in PvP when they can just make cash PvMing.

Second paragraph: no one said that.

So where did they like the PVP? Back in 1997 on OSI? The game has changed, I'm sorry to tell y'all that.

I think you're reading far too much into what I'm saying or you're triggered for some unknown reason.

I will make a simplified list of one sentence suggestions to reduce the level of comprehension required to follow this.

1) No trammel and no safe zones. Never requested, not required, would ruin the game, I think we agree on this
2) I'm not particularly keen on more rewards for PVP, and honestly think adding that could be bad as then it feels required to all. (Again I think overall we agree here)
3) Adding additional meaningful PVP encounters by giving a pvm'er an actual chance to fight back (I'll explain it a bit more below).
4) Honestly, if the playing field was leveled, I would suggest all negatives be removed for murderers (i.e. no stat loss) if it was a fair even fight, and they incurred risk in their activity proportionate to the rewards they were getting (the loot for a few seconds of work)

So going a bit further with point 3, as it sits now, and it's been reiterated and confirmed multiple times over, a pvm character has 0 chance against a pk when it rolls up on it. He is literally a loot pinata, get away or lose what you're carrying. I'm a newbie, I've only been here for a handful of weeks now and need to be doing pvm to get gold/resources to where I could even make a pvp char if I wanted. pvm'ers are also a large part (definitely majority) of the community. I was a seasoned UO vet back in the day, back with dread lords with no negatives at all (other then not going to town) so it was even more rampant back then, and I know how to survive and move around it, but not everybody does. I also want to add that I know of 3-4 other guys that started around the same time I did, and none of them log on anymore because of the ridiculous amount of pk's during prime time.

So I go back to my order/chaos/neutral idea here. And hear me out KAZ, because I think you might actually like some of it assuming you actually want pvp fights.

You're a PK, I'm neutral. I cannot attack you, even with you being red, but I can defend myself. You are free to attack me whenever you wish, but when you do I essentially get AR and magic damage mitigation buffs to where I don't instantly melt and have a chance to fight back. Now I'm still a pvm template, currently a provo/tamer, so unless I can get my pets to corner you I still really have nothing to fight back with other then a baseline of 100 magery (and lets be honest, pets are pretty stupid and hard to get changed onto a different target when there are other monsters it's already fighting). That said, my damage bonus and mitigation buffs only help offset the fact that I'm not a PVP template at all, and not stacking alchy with explo pots with poisoning in my template with dp kryss and so on.

Now if I'm putting myself at risk, not at full health, just took a flamestrike from an ogre mage or something, I'm still a quick easy kill. If I'm full health and stocked up, it's a fight on your hands. If you were a stealth archer you could just wait in the wings for a guy to be inundated before you attacked, but if that bandage heals him back up right as you attack, again, you're in for a hell of a fight.

The choice is still 100% in your hands about the engagement. Hell if you found a guy in deceit or something that wrecks you 3-4 times you could CHOOSE not to attack him, and he could not do a single thing to you because he's neutral.

My whole thought process here isn't to nullify pvp, or kill off pk's, or make trammie safe again. It's trying to create more meaningful pvp encounters on a daily basis. I haven't done militia, so I have no comments on it as far as incentives and all go, but generally I'm against making any one specific activity required in a game, especially a game like UO. You should militia because you want to, not because it gives you uber item x. I also don't take issue with Militia because it's consentual pvp, and should be pvp focused characters on each side to turn it into a battle of skill or numbers. (though if blue wallers or healers and shit are a thing that should automatically flag them for militia members). While no militia experience, I frequently pop through areas of dungeons for quick kills/loot, and as soon as I see a red name flash on screen I'm out of there whether mobs are dead or not, because there is 0% chance of me coming out of that encounter alive. If I had a chance in the fight, I'd stick it out and actually give you a fight, and win or lose, I personally would still enjoy it.

So the question remains here. Do you actually want more meaningful PVP on the server, or do you want to maintain the ability to have easy kills whenever you want while pk'ing. Either answer is fine, it's UO, there's no rules, and these are only suggestions. Plenty of us know exactly how to work and play inside the current ruleset.

As much as I'd love to read all of this, I was merely able to read parts. Why? Because this is (about) the 100th time I've read something similar to this. Let me ask you a simple question: Why, ever, should a PVM char, who sacrifies skills in order to have the best PVM template there is stand a chance against somebody who decides to PK him? It simply makes no sense. I do not think that all this PKing that is (apparently, and I barely ever see reds) going on is helping the server, but I do not think that a change like that is suitable. Why? Because it'd undermine the basic principles of a Felucca-Server.

 

[K A Z]

I read threads like this, where everyone get's passionate, and animated, and sometimes I think the original premise behind why the thread was posted gets lost. This started out as incentive for consensual PvP, and seems to have degraded into PvP in general, PvP'rs vs. PvM templates.. PK'n... how do people get so far off track?

I don't understand how anyone who currently does Militias, a form of competitive, consensual PvP - with literally no incentives (blessed weapons, champ score stone, and reagent stone? come on...) could be against a more flushed out Militias system, that would attract more people? I would love for someone to explain this to me.

Militia is not finished yet, they are working on it. But IMO it's already very good. What else would you like to see? I mean shiny neon items are just not gonna happen, and giving PVPers relics as rewards for PVP appears to be a bit too much for me too. Not to mention how exploitable it'd be (as was already pointed out pages 1-4 of this thread)

 

[AreYouKidden]

Militia is not finished yet, they are working on it. But IMO it's already very good. What else would you like to see? I mean shiny neon items are just not gonna happen, and giving PVPers relics as rewards for PVP appears to be a bit too much for me too. Not to mention how exploitable it'd be (as was already pointed out pages 1-4 of this thread)

To be fair, this -> https://www.uoforum.com/threads/the-potential-of-militias.99428/ But those were ideas, behind what Militias could be.

Right now PvP is just the fights which are fun, but as a newer player to the shard (only a year), there's so much to progress towards on the PvM side (housing/crafting/talismans/deco), that if I do PvP steady, I feel like I've halted any progress in the game. And I know many people who feel the same way.

I would like to see a Militias, which provides a means of progression/incentive (not necessarily PvM rewards either, I think PvP needs their own rewards - deco/bragging rights). I'd like goals to work towards, something that would make PvP nightly not feel like it's holding me back because I'm not progressing at anything. While you can't make PvP talismans which increase people's skill because that'd ruin PvP, it'd be great to have my own type of progression bar, that rewarded me when I hit level 2, level 3, level 10...

 

[AreYouKidden]

To further on the idea on PvP incentive/progression, a PvP talisman (the Militia Totem) that provides a progression bar, you could create the basis as bounty gained from capturing points, as one form of gaining individual rewards, and you could add relics at levels 1, 3, 7, 10 which allowed you to work towards other types of PvP deco:

• Damage Dealt while in Militias combat
• Healing Performed while in Militias combat
• Players killed while in Militias combat
• at a lost for a 4th one.. just spitballing here anyways..

Gear it all towards aesthetic rewards - cool shrouds or other pieces, that are tied to the players account so they can't be sold - if you are afraid of people cheating the system. Make the goals high and lofty, with the Meta mage talisman, it took me 5 months to level (obviously people can crash through it faster), but I'm still working on leveling the relics.

Anyways you get the point - I'm not trying to flush out a talisman for PvP here in 5 minutes, but that'd be an interesting take on PvP progression.

At the end of the day, if I could do Militias, and feel like I'm working towards something, or benefiting some how, I'd be more inclined to PvP more often, as would many people I play with in Trin. We had a militias team running when it started, we were excited. Those fights were a ton of fun in my eyes. But at some point people felt it was holding them back in other parts of the game, so they stopped doing Militias because there wasn't tangible incentive for it.

 

[Kyain]

So where did they like the PVP? Back in 1997 on OSI? The game has changed, I'm sorry to tell y'all that.



As much as I'd love to read all of this, I was merely able to read parts. Why? Because this is (about) the 100th time I've read something similar to this. Let me ask you a simple question: Why, ever, should a PVM char, who sacrifies skills in order to have the best PVM template there is stand a chance against somebody who decides to PK him? It simply makes no sense. I do not think that all this PKing that is (apparently, and I barely ever see reds) going on is helping the server, but I do not think that a change like that is suitable. Why? Because it'd undermine the basic principles of a Felucca-Server.

I don't want to undermine the Felucca ruleset. I still want open pvp and danger, but it's a thought process to get new people involved in PvP. If I'm not an instant kill for any group, it gets me engaged in the fight. I don't care if I still lose, but at least when there is a chance to fight back I'm going to take it. This trains your pvp abilities/skills, unlike now where I simply flee because I know there isn't a chance.

"Why, ever, should a PVM char, who sacrifies skills in order to have the best PVM template there is stand a chance against somebody who decides to PK him? It simply makes no sense."

Because it gets that person involved in PvP, and doesn't make them simply a statistic. I go back to that racing analogy, because I have done tons of it and seen all types, and bracket style racing has so many more people involved at events. You could show up with anything and be competitive, and it was not out of the ordinary to see 200+ cars in tiered brackets for racing. Then you had the big boys, the big money elite cars which were a run what you got heads up. If you were on average .2 seconds slower then you better figure out a way to come up with that additional time. You would be lucky to fill a 16 car field with these cars most of the times, and many many times classes got trimmed down to 8 cars due to attendance. Some events those bracket races have gotten so damn big they had to actually put time limitations on them to keep everybody from trying to join (world cup finals this year I think required at least a 13 second car to even run in brackets). Fun note too, those guys that get started and really hooked are always pushing themselves to go harder and even faster in brackets, and many eventually build full on race cars to compete in heads up classes.

So think Militias, the structuredish big boys heads up class as the show of who's better then who at all times, but then your open world non consensual pvp is more of a bracket event with handicaps. If you wanted that full on open world pvp too and didn't need the bracket you could opt to stay order even on your blue, and fight any red you wanted, or go chaos and even fight the blues if you deemed it fun that day. The guys that work in that bracketed pvp neutral idea, learn the mechanics, the interactions, the positioning while having a chance to fight back. Eventually you might make some new, top tier pvp'ers out of them

Obviously as well there's balance considerations to be taken into account. I don't think it should be swung one way or the other in terms of who has the upper hand. If anything, I'd like to lean more towards the pvp character still having an upper hand in most situations, but I believe regardless of the template, giving a pvm'er a chance at defending himself is a great idea. I think other balancing factors too could be implemented, like say a neutral player cannot stat you or turn in your bounty (or you cannot be statted if killed by a neutral)