Stealing - Mount cooldown

[Karl Sagan]

Keep shouting, and being condescending. Did you know that the louder you shout, the more right your argument is?

When you have a legitimate response to any of the points raised in the thread, then please let me know. I'm happy to concede that my proposition may be off the mark and not what would help balance the template, but it was at it's core an attempt at constructive discourse.

That's the problem with people like you. You don't have intelligent conversations about anything. You just like to shout louder than the other guy, because obviously you are right by default. Anyone who thinks that perhaps there is an issue that could be at least looked at, is an idiot who doesn't know how to play the game right? How could they possible know anything, they don't think like you do.

As far as I'm concerned there are a couple people in this thread who have posted meaningful comments. Messremb and Sommerella in particular. They both play thieves, and they both had insight. Messremb offered a fair point, and Somm fought hard for her stance. I respect that. Karl, you've done nothing but shout down at me.

The thing about this topic, in which some people have made fair points in the past is that most of the best things to steal are protected one way or another. Some things slip through the cracks, such as Skill Scrolls, particularly the really valuable ones. Veteran players will learn one way or the other how to protect against thieves. My method is to avoid WBB generally, but there are others as mentioned above. The big thing here is there is a population of players who don't have this knowledge, and that is new players to the shard. Fact is, thieving rules are very different here than OSI or other shards. New players don't know that. So it's the new players who are getting items lifted from them, items that many of us would only be mildly annoyed about, such as regs, arrows/bolts, weapons and armor. To us this is nothing, but to those new players that can represent hours of effort put in to getting started here. Traditionally WBB is the main hub of any shard, and I know for a fact that most shard Admins want people to congregate there. Except right now, we have multiple thieves treating WBB like their own personal ATM, and alot of new people to the shard have no idea what is hitting them. So on top of the fact that leaving town is a tremendous risk for them until they learn the patterns of PKs etc, but now the main hub, in the main town, is a thieves den. Interesting design choice on this shard is that docks is a no thieving safe zone, which is a great idea to have one. The disconnect from my perspective, is why is the no thieving zone the docks area, where it is mostly Veterans who congregate there, because new players don't really know about it. It is a custom area. Why is the main hub not the safe zone, and the other banks around the world the places where you may risk your possessions if you are not careful, you know, those hubs populated by people who know the server. I think it would make alot of sense to swap zones, because the people who congregate on the docks to watch the duels etc are better prepared to protect themselves, the main hub can be safely populated and look busy (which is great for the shard's PR) and new players have a chance to ease into the unique risks presented on this shard. Also, I think the docks is a much more exciting place for thieves to be pushed to, because it has a choke point, and they can't just run around all of Brit with no restraint. That may not be the answer, because it is likely people would stop going to the docks if WBB was the safe zone.

That novel length paragraph is an example of how you can explore a feature or issue on a shard like this, and have some constructive perspective before you make any decisions. In the end the correct decision is probably not to change the mount issue, nor to swap safe zones, but perhaps to implement Messremb's point that instant banking is a bit extreme.


All of that being said, I'm not sure why some of you are so addicted to keeping UO the most toxic, inbred community in gaming. Every time I've played a shard of UO, there is this loud, vocal community of people who shout and shit all over anyone outside their social circle, act like dickbags to each other and everyone else, and generally make UO into an extremely shitty experience for anyone who doesn't align with their "gg l2play *****" attitudes. The game is almost twenty years old, presumably most of you are in your late twenties/early thirties, and probably should have outgrown being a juvenile cockbag. I guess not.

Long story short here, there are suddenly a lot of bottom feeders at WBB, and they are only hurting the new community. You know....those people that bring fresh lifeblood to the shard and generally a healthy stream of dono to keep it going. That's ok though, keep propagating a locker room hazing mentality to anyone who dares speak up out of turn.

im not talking down to you or trying to shout you down, im trying to help you understand that there are already very simple ways to protect yourself from thieves (that have been around on every shard ever). All these convoluted changes you are suggesting are just handholding for people who don't have the good sense to do 5 minutes of research, or ask in irc, or even ask in game. If you can't do those things then you absolutely deserve to be stolen from, just like if you don't set up 'show incoming names' and a recall hotkey you deserve to get pkd.

and wtf are you talking about making the docks the only area where thieves can steal? that's stupid. no one would go there. It doesn't even make any sense. It's a terrible idea.

Sorry but ignorance of game mechanics/zones is no reason to push for a nerf. Better to just learn to play.

 

[MortalSword]

"oh great another butt hurt nerf stealing thread

*looks at join date*

*crumples up thread and throws it in the trash*

learn to play bud. thieves have been nerfed multiple times, playstyles ruined, and its still not enough because fuckwits like you can't take 1 minute to put your precious regs and arrows in a locked box. gimme a fucking break."

"So yes, basically learn to play instead of crying on the forums asking for a nerf of a class you don't understand."

"ITS ALWAYS GOTTA BE EXPLAINED 50 TIMES, 50 DIFFERENT WAYS, AND THEY STILL DONT GET IT"

Looks like a lot of shouting. Looks like a lot of insults, without cause.

I've already conceded that my original thought on the matter is flawed. You understand that is how problems are solved and solutions are discovered right? Let me make it very clear: UPON FURTHER REFLECTION AND BASED ON POINTS RAISED BY PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD, IT APPEARS THAT MOUNTS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM, AT LEAST SO FAR AS THAT CHANGING MOUNTING RULES IN REGARD TO STEALING IS NOT THE SOLUTION.

Ok, can we move on? I made a mistake, based on the limited information I had at the time.

Messremb literally said "first off thieves are op here" and then proceeded to mention that they were worse, and have been largely fixed, but that being able to bank what they just stole is probably still an issue.

My thoughts on docks vs WBB were to illustrate one way of exploring an idea, rather than just going "nope, shut up". I'm not sure if you have issues with reading comprehension, but I never said making docks the only place to steal, I said that making WBB the safe zone makes alot of sense, but making docks a desirable destination for veteran players is a good idea, and that it makes a very interesting setting for potential thieves because it is somewhat risky for them, being very limited in escape outlets etc.

You seem to be stuck in the mentality that because something is the way it is right now, it has to stay that way. There are so many factors that change the situation from OSI and other shards it's actually a little overwhelming. Consider that skills are gained much faster here, therefore it is much easier for just anyone to get a filled out template relatively easily. So no barrier for the riff raff, if you'll indulge me. Further, there are fundamental changes to the key skills in the template, such as stealing and stealth, that are different from OSI and other shards. Particular emphasis on drastic reductions in the limitations on stealth that previously made it much more balanced. Then take into consideration one of the biggest lynchpin topics on this server, which is the lack of mount fatigue that has contributed to a persistent marathon PVP and thieving atmosphere on the shard. Redlining someone doesn't slow them down, and they can escape much more easily than they could traditionally.

That logical pathway is what led to me addressing the thief/mount issue, because that was the only logical approach I could think of to start a conversation, largely because I was positive that mount fatigue was not a feature this shard was looking to add.

So basically, when you change the rules on the shard to such a degree that they do not function in unison the way they had in the past, then that leads to a sense of imbalance to those who were familiar with those systems in the past. It creates a very complex web of interrelated conflicts or unintended consequences. Your perception of the template seems to be that it was nerfed heavily, but that fails to address all the ways that it was directly and indirectly buffed by other rules on the shard. It obviously had to be addressed because changes have been made.

The answer to a systemic balance issue is not to tell people to shut up and use lockboxes. That is a short term patch, for a bigger issue. This whole topic ties in to a lot of different points, and one that I tried to illustrate for you was the effect it has on new player population. You may think new players are not important, or deserving idiots fit for being thrown to the wolves, but I do not share that sentiment. OSI had tons of systems in place that allowed players to ease into the gameplay experience, and when freeshards run unique sets of rules, they should consider the consequences some of those rules have on their incoming population, who you know, affects their income. In short, you may not think much of new players, but they are pretty important for the health of a shard.

 

[Karl Sagan]

"oh great another butt hurt nerf stealing thread

*looks at join date*

*crumples up thread and throws it in the trash*

learn to play bud. thieves have been nerfed multiple times, playstyles ruined, and its still not enough because fuckwits like you can't take 1 minute to put your precious regs and arrows in a locked box. gimme a fucking break."

"So yes, basically learn to play instead of crying on the forums asking for a nerf of a class you don't understand."

"ITS ALWAYS GOTTA BE EXPLAINED 50 TIMES, 50 DIFFERENT WAYS, AND THEY STILL DONT GET IT"

Looks like a lot of shouting. Looks like a lot of insults, without cause.

I've already conceded that my original thought on the matter is flawed. You understand that is how problems are solved and solutions are discovered right? Let me make it very clear: UPON FURTHER REFLECTION AND BASED ON POINTS RAISED BY PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD, IT APPEARS THAT MOUNTS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM, AT LEAST SO FAR AS THAT CHANGING MOUNTING RULES IN REGARD TO STEALING IS NOT THE SOLUTION.

Ok, can we move on? I made a mistake, based on the limited information I had at the time.

Messremb literally said "first off thieves are op here" and then proceeded to mention that they were worse, and have been largely fixed, but that being able to bank what they just stole is probably still an issue.

My thoughts on docks vs WBB were to illustrate one way of exploring an idea, rather than just going "nope, shut up". I'm not sure if you have issues with reading comprehension, but I never said making docks the only place to steal, I said that making WBB the safe zone makes alot of sense, but making docks a desirable destination for veteran players is a good idea, and that it makes a very interesting setting for potential thieves because it is somewhat risky for them, being very limited in escape outlets etc.

You seem to be stuck in the mentality that because something is the way it is right now, it has to stay that way. There are so many factors that change the situation from OSI and other shards it's actually a little overwhelming. Consider that skills are gained much faster here, therefore it is much easier for just anyone to get a filled out template relatively easily. So no barrier for the riff raff, if you'll indulge me. Further, there are fundamental changes to the key skills in the template, such as stealing and stealth, that are different from OSI and other shards. Particular emphasis on drastic reductions in the limitations on stealth that previously made it much more balanced. Then take into consideration one of the biggest lynchpin topics on this server, which is the lack of mount fatigue that has contributed to a persistent marathon PVP and thieving atmosphere on the shard. Redlining someone doesn't slow them down, and they can escape much more easily than they could traditionally.

That logical pathway is what led to me addressing the thief/mount issue, because that was the only logical approach I could think of to start a conversation, largely because I was positive that mount fatigue was not a feature this shard was looking to add.

So basically, when you change the rules on the shard to such a degree that they do not function in unison the way they had in the past, then that leads to a sense of imbalance to those who were familiar with those systems in the past. It creates a very complex web of interrelated conflicts or unintended consequences. Your perception of the template seems to be that it was nerfed heavily, but that fails to address all the ways that it was directly and indirectly buffed by other rules on the shard. It obviously had to be addressed because changes have been made.

The answer to a systemic balance issue is not to tell people to shut up and use lockboxes. That is a short term patch, for a bigger issue. This whole topic ties in to a lot of different points, and one that I tried to illustrate for you was the effect it has on new player population. You may think new players are not important, or deserving idiots fit for being thrown to the wolves, but I do not share that sentiment. OSI had tons of systems in place that allowed players to ease into the gameplay experience, and when freeshards run unique sets of rules, they should consider the consequences some of those rules have on their incoming population, who you know, affects their income. In short, you may not think much of new players, but they are pretty important for the health of a shard.

1. My tone was because this discussion has been had many times, your idea was bad, and your premise was incorrect. That being said if you can't take some extremely light sarcasm then I'm sorry.

2. You can only bank items after stealing if it is a clean steal.

3. I'm an active companion who personally helps many new players every week, at my own cost and without reward. I care about new players quite a bit, but that does not mean I think people should be coddled. Usually I tell them to make a thief because it is fun and playing one will help them understand how to protect themselves. I also tell them to put anything valuable in a locked box because it is such an easy and 100% effective counter to thieves. Lazy, stupid, or careless people WILL get stolen from and I have no sympathy for those people. UO, or at least UOF, is no place for them. This is a felucca shard and people need to act accordingly.

4. Can you write a little more concisely? Your verbosity is getting to be a bit much.

5. The answer to a balance concern isn't to point out that there is in fact a very easy way to balance the template? What? Why would you want to propose such convoluted solutions when there is already a simple, well known, and 100% effective solution already in place?

So yes, again, learn how to play instead of suggesting asinine nerfs to a class you do not understand.

 

[MortalSword]

Genuine thank you for the solid response.

I disagree with your sentiment about UO in general, and UOF. It doesn't need to be a cesspool of dickbaggery. There is certainly a time and place for those things, but it doesn't need to be a constant bombardment from the moment you arrive. Perhaps I don't understand why some people's sole idea of a good time is to ruin or impede other's attempts at a good time, but we digress. I just don't believe in living my life that way, and I don't understand people who do. Not the point of this thread however.

I know you are a companion, but I'm not sure why you would come at me the way you did if you are. My understanding of most shards is that Companions are there to help new players, and foster a stronger community on the shard. Not running around telling people to QQ and shut up, but enough about that. My ideas were flawed, and there is a constructive way to address that, which took three pages of posts to arrive at. I'm still not sure why most of the vocal people on this shard act like children, it doesn't make any sense. Hunt me relentlessly for profit, curse me out if I've wronged you, but wanton douchebaggery is completely pointless. Especially on a game with a community this small. I guess if that's some folk's idea of a good time, I'll continue to disregard them completely unless I need something from them.

I'll be as verbose as I choose, thank you. If you get to be a general douchebag at will, I reserve the right to get as verbose as I choose.

Your assessment of my abilities to play this game, or the understanding of the game's mechanics is not at all accurate. I've been gaming most of my life, and have worked in different aspects of the industry. I'm pretty familiar with different aspects of game design, balance and implementation. These topics get really touchy when you are dealing with privately modified versions of a game that has been out for this long. The truth is this shard is very different from any era of OSI, and is obviously different from other shards. Much of the specifics are not obvious until you've been exposed to them in more detail, which is what this thread has accomplished. It makes no more sense for me to know every detail about the layout of your home if I've never been there, but it doesn't mean any insight I have once I enter it has no worth or relevance. As I've said above, just because you disagree with me, doesn't mean I am wrong, and it doesn't mean that this conversation serves no purpose.

You strike me as a pretty intelligent guy, might serve you better to act like it, and less like a juvenile that lacks discipline. In any case, I appreciate your last post, despite having to get your last jab in, you did tone down the vitriol a bit. Let's be clear, your comments were not sarcastic, they were immature, unstructured bile that was spouted out of habit. Bad habits, that only serve to make your points seem less meaningful. I'm sure you'll take offense to this, and spout off some more, but you'll just be proving my point. This is coming from someone who has done the same thing, although with far less frequency as I've aged. I'm not responding any more to the thread, if you want to take anything up with me, feel free to PM.

Thanks to everyone who tried to contribute to the conversation, and I owe Somm an apology for losing my cool earlier, I could have constructed my thoughts better, rather than resorting to similar behavior to what I'm trying to condemn here. Take care and have fun folks.

 

[Bunnky]

.... Really? How about we start revealing, walking around, thief proofing your bags, and being aware before we change ANOTHER thief mechanic.

 

[God.RG]

Repeating the fact that it is so easy to make a thief does nothing for your point. It's easy to make any type of character and make gold.
You can make a bard in 24 hours and make 10x the money you could with a thief most of the time.

 

[Akillah]

TOO LONG, DIDNT READ. THE ANSWER IS NO.

Stop with the sad novels, makes me cranky.

 

[Soulkeeper]

why anyone goes/ stays at WBB is beyond reason. Just a bunch of vendors and vagabons patrolling and looting there.

 

[Akillah]

why anyone goes/ stays at WBB is beyond reason. Just a bunch of vendors and vagabons patrolling and looting there.

srsly find a person redoing their house(where I fall victim) or go to a dungeon and lurk around like the lurker you are.

 

[Soulkeeper]

srsly find a person redoing their house(where I fall victim) or go to a dungeon and lurk around like the lurker you are.

calling people things they aren't....

typical female response

 

[Akillah]

calling people things they aren't....

typical female response

excuse me, I wasn't calling you the lurker. I was agreeing with you sir.

 

[Cack]

Thieves are funny...the most ive lost is some regs...who gives a fuck.
on evry server I've ever played thieves have been nerfed.

 

[VFingerDiscount]

Can't believe this guy posted 10 walls of text from getting stolen from once. What a gay.

signature field is blank

 

[King Dingaling]

lol

just keeps posting the same shit.. "there is NOTHING to lose for thieves" blah blah. only thing you really gave credit to was the post about thieves being op on this shard. everything else you chose to ignore.

do what i do....ANYTHING of value i get off a corpse (even a +1 magery scroll), i recall to go bank it and come back. not that hard if you INSIST on not taking the obvious advice to make yourself thief bulletproof and carry your shit in a locked box

 

[God.RG]

calling people things they aren't....

typical female response

immediately defensive and sexist over a wizard forum.
typical loser response.

 

[Soulkeeper]

excuse me, I wasn't calling you the lurker. I was agreeing with you sir.

My mistake m'lady

 

[SidX]

The problem with not being able to steal while mounted is that you will then completely flip the tables from what you are saying is "all reward, no risk". You turn thieving into "all risk, no reward". I guarantee any thief in WBB or at any champ spawn would get steam rolled trying to get away on foot. It would literally be impossible unless the victim lagged out and lost connection.

How is a naked thief going to get away with a steal wearing no armor, no weapon and riding no mount?

Being able to steal mounted, in my opinion, is the trade off for not being able to steal while wearing armor or holding a weapon. We give up all of our defenses to be able to steal an item, so the mount becomes our only defense.

You just have to be able to counter the thief. I've done quick running steals and bolted away, only to be killed by the victim who threw explode pots and shot magic arrows at me. It's possible, just hard.

 

[Pike_Noir]

Don't hang at WBB that will solve prolly 90% of your problem. Repeatedly doing the same thing over and over again to expect a different result is just you going insane.

I mean really I don't even GOTO WBB due to the nature of spam, mass people, and it being congested to the point that thieves can move around better un-detected.

Lastly to say they don't lose items.... My thief was never pure thief. One was a mage, one was a archer and there was serious pain in suffering when you successfully steal, and go grey and could possibly have the whole bank dumpin on you. Whats even more painful is you successfully steal the item, and something happens and you lose the score.

Ohh TIME is something that is valueable through ALL BUILDS. It takes TIME to obtain any aspect or character build. It is one of the most toughest templates to play "properly" and "skillfully" to get the item you want and get away Scott free. Ohh not to mention your thief name will become noticed and even your character dressing setup even hair-styles. Ohh and you pay dues i believe on thieving as well.

I agree with Sommerella that you should make a 7x thief and see how easy it is (really difficult and always on the cusp of changing tactics)

 

[Pike_Noir]

Keep shouting, and being condescending. Did you know that the louder you shout, the The big thing here is there is a population of players who don't have this knowledge, and that is new players to the shard. Fact is, thieving rules are very different here than OSI or other shards. New players don't know that. So it's the new players who are getting items lifted from them, items that many of us would only be mildly annoyed about, such as regs, arrows/bolts, weapons and armor.

you do know that New Players have young status right?

 

[James Franco]

So stealing is pretty absurd right now. Not only do thieves risk nothing when stealing, particularly at WBB but they can do it while mounted, and therefore run/hide near infinitely. I chased a thief for fifteen minutes in Brit, to no avail because he can zoom around on an ethy and hide/stealth every couple seconds.

I'd suggest no stealing on a mount, and no mount up for some period of time. Doesn't have to be forever. Idea should be that a good thief can get close, do their deed and stealth away, but not on a flippin ethy.

That's my bit....thieves are out of control right now, and that's the most constructive idea I've come up with. The point here is these guys are operating with near complete immunity to any repercussions. None of their skills are material intensive, and they require no equipment or materials to steal, and can hide/stealth every couple seconds. UO is about risk vs reward, and right now these guys get all upside with no risk.

I DO NOT APPROVE OF THIS THREAD.