Mage PvP Needs Diversity

[jenny_jugs]

Random work thoughts.

Right now, the status if mage PvP here is pretty simple: if you don't have stun, you're at a disadvantage. I, personally, think that stun is a crutch, and that more abilities should be adjusted to be made relevant in mage PvP.

Parrying - with GM parry and meditation, one can cast while holding a shield. (It used to be possible to cast while holding a shield.) While casting a spell, the parry chance is reduced.

- This would make parry an attractive ability.

Arms Lore - the disarm duration with wrestling disarm is increased to 5 seconds.

- This would make wrestling disarm valid against both dexers and parry mages.

Poisoning - deadly poison has a 5 second tick and can only be cured by bandages (GM heal and anat) or magery.

- Not only would this make poisoning a legitimate skill, but it would lessen the dependency on cure pots. Mages would have to actually cast, heal and cure strategically. (Poisoning used to be more effective.)

List of legitimate secondary abilities for mages (after these adjustments):
- Alchemy
- Anatomy (stun)
- Arms Lore (disarm)
- Healing
- Inscription
- Parrying
- Poisoning

It would be awesome to see an influx of new builds to the fold, and not the typical "stun punch/throw pots" that "leet PvPers" use to dominate the scene right now. Furthermore, both poisoning and parrying used to have these characteristics in the past.

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these are the stupidest ideas i've ever seen, i now know that you're not worth listening to.

But i will agree with you that mage pvp is pretty much just stun/2 1 drop sync, unfortunately it is how this style of pvp is and mages are the most powerful template (without equal in group pvp). I enjoy fighting in dungeons as it creates more diversity.

 

[Winstonian]

What you seem to not get is that it's not "what PVP has become" but rather what UOR is. What class used to take skill in your oppinion? And why do Mages not take Skill anymore now? You ever tried to play a sucessful Alchymage? Tried to fit explosion potions into your combos? Tried to kill Alchydexxers on a Mage? You can do it, it just takes SKILL.

If you, however, really can't enjoy Stun I would suggest to go to the duelpits and have 5x mage fights. Here you use nothing but pure Magery.

First of all, poisoning here is less effective than it was in UOR. This isn't a replica of the way UOR was, and that's a good thing. It doesn't mean it's perfect.

Me being against the dependency on stun mages doesn't mean I only want to duel 5x. I simply want some variety with the mage builds, and threw out some random ideas while bored at work.

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[Winstonian]

Changing poisoning would just turn every Mage into a poison Mage. It's game breaking. Stun is the only thing that makes field pvp viable on this server( unless you want to just double click someone on a dexxer and follow them with explo pots), if you didn't have stun people would just run for days until they made it to their house. There are lots of ways to counter stun mages. Cast invis on the person who is stunned, disrupt the mages dumping, or god forbid you have to actually hit a good heal.

It's threads like these that make me sick. People who don't actually pvp that suggest game breaking changes.

If you think you're actually good at pure Mage pvp than prove it to me in a 5x duel or just stop posting.

Gore: you're ridiculous. Stop pretending that you know I don't PvP, or that others need your approval to suggest fixes to mechanics that are clearly broken.

I joined a few weeks ago, and am building chars (including a tamer, my first PvM char ever in this game). I used to only PvP back in the day. Once I'm finished building, I'll happily prove myself. It doesn't mean that there aren't flaws here.

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[kurtis]

I agree with you that reliance on stun is pretty boring.

The only suggestion I really want to comment on is the poisoning change. Poison dexers already tear up mages. If a mage can't cure DP with a GC pot, it's going to be game over for mages. While I don't think anyone would argue that Nox mages need a boost, proposed changes to the DP/cure dynamic have been dismissed because it increases an already powerful template - poison dexers. The proposed changes would have to adjust only what specifically happens when a mage casts poison (such as radius when it lands DP, etc.)

Also, as someone pointed out, in group fighting just throwing in a poison on a dump would pretty much seal the deal. Especially in 2v2's.

 

[Winstonian]

I agree with you that reliance on stun is pretty boring.

The only suggestion I really want to comment on is the poisoning change. Poison dexers already tear up mages. If a mage can't cure DP with a GC pot, it's going to be game over for mages. While I don't think anyone would argue that Nox mages need a boost, proposed changes to the DP/cure dynamic have been dismissed because it increases an already powerful template - poison dexers. The proposed changes would have to adjust only what specifically happens when a mage casts poison (such as radius when it lands DP, etc.)

Also, as someone pointed out, in group fighting just throwing in a poison on a dump would pretty much seal the deal. Especially in 2v2's.

Thanks for the feedback. I have a few points.

Mages would not only be able to cure via spell, but it would also increase the value of healing for mages. Also, mages would now have parrying as an option, so each class would get an optional boost.

As for the group dumps: the nox mage would have to be two tiles or closer to have a chance for it to hit. Not only should they not let the nox mage sit next to them, but players used to 2v2 without pots all the time. Curing poison via the spell used to be a part of the beauty of dueling, and not easily fixed by a pot macro.

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[kurtis]

Thanks for the feedback. I have a few points.

Mages would not only be able to cure via spell, but it would also increase the value of healing for mages. Also, mages would now have parrying as an option, so each class would get an optional boost.

As for the group dumps: the nox mage would have to be two tiles or closer to have a chance for it to hit. Not only should they not let the nox mage sit next to them, but players used to 2v2 without pots all the time. Curing poison via the spell used to be a part of the beauty of dueling, and not easily fixed by a pot macro.

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If you've ever had a poison dexer nipping at your heels, you know a cure spell - even though only a second level - can be really hard to get off. I know this because I play a poison swords dexer. When a mage runs out of GC pots, it's GG. If those pots never worked on my DP....can't even imagine.

 

[halygon]

Yeah, so I'm not sure any of your ideas would be good. I have to agree with everyone else that they are poor ideas,

Parry on mages? Lol um no, there was a time that mages had parry - post t2a -but the shields had to be removed to cast a spell. It wasn't till EA fucked up things that spell channelling shields were available.

Arms lore buff? Um no... Disarm thieves are already way OP on this shard due to the unbelievable importance that the devs give them.

Stun to go away? It's a key part of uor Mage warfare... Can't remove that...

Poison buff on deadly poison? Sure for mages this may be feasible, but are you forgetting other dexxors? They would need to wait for a nandaid to go through to cure? ARE YOU MAD? You can't make those kinda changes to poison on a shard where poison is already king.

Why are you creating threads with these crazy proposed changes? What about real issues like no stamina loss, or no mace stamina drain, or explosion pots not doing splash damage, or explosion pots doing too much damage for non-alchy throwers, or even the crazy speed that EVs move? These are actual topics worth discussing and having changes made to.

Please stop trying to have oddball non-UO:R changes implemented.

 

[Winstonian]

You'd rather multiple threads be made that discuss the same issues? Sounds like a waste.

As I said, these were some random thoughts I had while at work. Poisoning is currently irrelevant for mages, and it shouldn't be. Mages used to cast while holding shields before T2A. The disarm idea was a way for it to be relevant in PvP, without being a thief.

Regardless, my point is that stun shouldn't be mandatory, and all of the "leet" mages depend on it. It shouldn't be that way.

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[Basileus]

There's something I dislike, maybe most discussed. Can't be true that I can recall at any time during a fight.... To easy to escape!

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[Winstonian]

There's something I dislike, maybe most discussed. Can't be true that I can recall at any time during a fight.... To easy to escape!

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If you attack, you cannot. You'll get the "wouldst thou escape" message.

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[Gedron]

Diversity is fine. You can still make a parry/heal mage if you want for stealing sigils, but that's all I ever remember them being used for back in the day anyway. The reason why stun is so prominent here is because there is no mount fatigue. Implement mount fatigue and you'll see stun become less common on templates (in my opinion).

That being said, I do believe scribe mages deserve a 10% spell damage boost and Nox mages still need to be reworked.

 

[Winstonian]

Diversity is fine. You can still make a parry/heal mage if you want for stealing sigils, but that's all I ever remember them being used for back in the day anyway. The reason why stun is so prominent here is because there is no mount fatigue. Implement mount fatigue and you'll see stun become less common on templates (in my opinion).

That being said, I do believe scribe mages deserve a 10% spell damage boost and Nox mages still need to be reworked.

I disagree about stun, and for two reasons: 1) it's often used at the beginning of a duel after precasting, and 2) it's the preferred ability of 7x duels, where running isn't possible. Because of a lack of equal options, it's used by everyone.

I'm not suggesting that stun be nerfed, but that other skills be made more effective. Your points about scribe and poisoning are good.

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[Struan]

Hal,

Some good points....not just because of pvp implications but ones that just seem ..wrong i guess:

Where do people stand on these?

-No mount fatigue
-no mace stam drain (wasn't the draw of blunt weapons always the stam loss/armor damage?)
-pots not doing splash damage (I mean you are literally throwing a grenade...and no splash damage?!?)

 

[Winstonian]

Hal,

Some good points....not just because of pvp implications but ones that just seem ..wrong i guess:

Where do people stand on these?

-No mount fatigue
-no mace stam drain (wasn't the draw of blunt weapons always the stam loss/armor damage?)
-pots not doing splash damage (I mean you are literally throwing a grenade...and no splash damage?!?)

Those absolutely need to be implemented.

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[K A Z]

Splash damage would literally remove Alchymages from Factions completly and turn it into a scribemage vs. scribemage fest. I mean.. I don't really care myself since it would be nice for me to have a reason to finally get scribe instead of alchy on my factioner but I don't see how this would improve anything. Stam drain is just another thing from the past imo. With total refresh pots such special hits are just worthless, tbh. Mount fatigue will never be added I guess.. Shane said it before.

 

[Winstonian]

For those that weren't aware: long before UOR, Order/Chaos shields used to be able to be worn while casting. Not only did this make O/C immensely popular, but created a build (roach mage) that defined the era.

KAZ: stam drain still needs to be implemented, regardless if it's negated by potions. That's like making poison irrelevant because players can just drink a gcure. Players need to be forced to drink the potion.

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[Amsterdamaged]

For those that weren't aware: long before UOR, Order/Chaos shields used to be able to be worn while casting. Not only did this make O/C immensely popular, but created a build (roach mage) that defined the era.

I want to add that you had to be a lord to get those shields and if you lost the lord status you had to regain it.

 

[halygon]

I want to add that you had to be a lord to get those shields and if you lost the lord status you had to regain it.

Wtf? Order chaos shields were given to literally everyone that was in order or chaos. The guy who handed them out would only give you one. So ppl would throw theirs on the ground and ask for another. You would do this over and over till you were stocked up. The shields were also newbied. They were not spell channelling shields. Mages only wore them if they had parry or for the measly ar they provided (mostly cause the shields were free.) If you casted a spell, they would be disarmed (in even earlier times, you had to disarm this separately before a spell was cast).

 

[Winstonian]

Wtf? Order chaos shields were given to literally everyone that was in order or chaos. The guy who handed them out would only give you one. So ppl would throw theirs on the ground and ask for another. You would do this over and over till you were stocked up. The shields were also newbied. They were not spell channelling shields. Mages only wore them if they had parry or for the measly ar they provided (mostly cause the shields were free.) If you casted a spell, they would be disarmed (in even earlier times, you had to disarm this separately before a spell was cast).

Order/Chaos shields could be equipped and held while casting back in the day. It was labeled a roach mage.

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[Amsterdamaged]

^