A Better Way

[Messremb]

So i want to start this off by saying I love this shard. i like the people and the events and cool additions the staff have added. there is no doubt that this is shard is amazing due to the hard work and effort of the staff.

that said let me tell you a story. (i waited a day so there would be 0 rage included in this story)

Yesterday our guild was doing the Oaks spawn. when we do this he have a few miners who will try and pull Elementals to help kill the early spawn (this is now against the rules so if you get no further than this don't do it), a few weeks previous i had mentioned that we do this to Shane, who had nothing to say about it, thus i assumed it was ok.

I digress, about half way through level 2 our Val elemental disappears. we just thought maybe it de-spawned oh well, see if we can get another. then one of our miners who was dual clienting kept getting teleported all over the place. we just though hey maybe they put in some new thing that you cant be afk hidden in champ zone. we kept at it, as we finished the second level all of a sudden 4 of our red skulls just vanish... (anyone who has done oaks with no Val Elemental know how devastating that is)

any ways I page in to find out whats going on. the reponse i get is something like "we were watching you guys use an exploit instead of reporting it like you should."

at this point we decided to just abandon the spawn as everyone was pissed.

Now the important thing to note here is we were not pissed about not being able to use the Val Elemental (disappointed maybe), we were pissed because rather that informing us of what they didn't want us doing, the staff just fucked us over, and if we hadn't paged in we would never have found out why. as the creators of the rules its the staffs job to let us know what the rules are, they should not expect us to read their minds and punish us when we don't.

This type of behavior troubles me greatly, and i believe its actions like these that lead to the mistrust of the staff from a large portion of the players (most who feel this way wont say it as the staff is quick to swing the ban hammer). I myself will not be surprised if i get warned or banned for this, but my convictions require i say something.

TLDR

I believe there is a better way, Communication. Rather than swing the ban hammer or mess with people in game, Communicate with them. We as players may not always agree with the choices you as staff make, but in the end your decisions are what matters, but you cant expect us to read your minds. you don't even need explain your decisions to us (though it is helpful when you do) you simply need to let us know. I am grateful for all the staff here does and i really hope this thread can be taken in the way it was meant.

Thanks for all you guys do.

 

[SteelSexi]

This should be a step in the right direction as communication and making sure there is understanding definitely helps not only you, but all the people who will read this thread as well, so I thank you for that.

I don't know anything about the Oaks spawn, but I can understand the frustration that might be involved in having something you've worked hard for taken away after you thought you were playing by the rules. From reading this however, it seems as if the staff or the staff member was pretty sure you "knew better" and punished you for knowingly taking advantage of an exploit.

..I have no idea if you knew better or not. Only you and your buddies know that answer. But if you didn't then it was obviously a misunderstanding, as it surely sounds like the staff thought you did, or should have known what you were doing was wrong.

Regardless of how you feel they took the wrong approach in letting you know.. the point is that obviously you cannot use that method and you are taking advantage of some exploit and can't be rewarded with the goodies (at least as far as stuff is concerned). And the main point is that you do know better now right? I 100% agree with you however that communication ahead of time is much better then robbing of you rewards you feel you fairly deserved. That leaves you feeling cheated and like you were "messed with" and all that stuff, even if that wasn't at all the intention of the staff involved here. On their end, they likely felt you should have known better and gave you a fitting punishment... which I gotta admit is better then being banned.

{shrugs}

 

[Kraden]

Just because I am a noob, what exactly kind of exploit where you using?

Also, if you knew about it which I am assuming you didnt? Then they should have just shut it down and came out and said why and end of story

 

[Karl Sagan]

First, Shane and his team have built, by FAR, the most successful UO free shard in years. It's on a good trajectory and has survived multiple other new shards starting up and then shitting the bed. A HUGE part of that is due to Shane's ability to market his product.

But there has been an increasing feeling of animosity between the staff and the player base. Lots of examples of this and most people have at least one of their own. Building and running a great shard is not the same thing as keeping people happy.

The UOF team really needs a dedicated customer service rep. I'm a business owner and I have seen first hand how customer service, the way you talk to and treat people, can turn a person yelling at you into a person telling you to take their money.

Think about that @Shane: all the people who talk shit on UOF and all the people who have been banned or quit out of anger, back here right now giving you money.

 

[Messremb]

We did not know they considered it an exploit and I still do not think its any more an exploit that using paint with coon, dragging spawn to kill someone, or dragging heavy items through gates. however as I have said, if the staff decides it is so all they needed to do was tell us.

Just because I am a noob, what exactly kind of exploit where you using?

Also, if you knew about it which I am assuming you didnt? Then they should have just shut it down and came out and said why and end of story

I don't think they want people to know about it as they have yet to make it so you cant to it. I will PM you what it is but please do not attempt it and don't spread it around.

First, Shane and his team have built, by FAR, the most successful UO free shard in years. It's on a good trajectory and has survived multiple other new shards starting up and then shitting the bed. A HUGE part of that is due to Shane's ability to market his product.

But there has been an increasing feeling of animosity between the staff and the player base. Lots of examples of this and most people have at least one of their own. Building and running a great shard is not the same thing as keeping people happy.

The UOF team really needs a dedicated customer service rep. I'm a business owner and I have seen first hand how customer service, the way you talk to and treat people, can turn a person yelling at you into a person telling you to take their money.

Think about that @Shane: all the people who talk shit on UOF and all the people who have been banned or quit out of anger, back here right now giving you money.

^^^^ This 100000X This^^^^^^

well said karl

 

[Kraden]

1

We did not know they considered it an exploit and I still do not think its any more an exploit that using paint with coon, dragging spawn to kill someone, or dragging heavy items through gates. however as I have said, if the staff decides it is so all they needed to do was tell us.



I don't think they want people to know about it as they have yet to make it so you cant to it. I will PM you what it is but please do not attempt it and don't spread it around.


^^^^ This 100000X This^^^^^^

well said karl

So what was the exploit then

 

[eppy]

1

So what was the exploit then

Using a valorite ele to kill the pixies at Lord Oaks.

 

[Karl Sagan]

They were mining up valorite elementals and pulling them to the spawn and somehow (I dunno maybe val eles have different karma or something? Some PvM dark magic anyways) would be my guess.

I mean 'exploit' or not, they spent quite a bit of time doing the champ. To trash it right away and just give a pithy non-answer is really disrespectful of the players time. It's dismissive and rude when it could be nice or just invisible.

Doing customer relations type crap for a product you make is one of the hardest and most frustrating things in business.

Here's your baby. Here's a guy saying your baby is a piece of shit. He says fuck you. Oh that guy is killing your baby. That one over there is trying to steal it. Oh those people over there that you don't even notice? They are the ones that are happy with your baby.

 

[SteelSexi]

Using a valorite ele to kill the pixies at Lord Oaks

I can see the OP's frustation. So using vulnerable miners using the gargoyles pickaxe to spawn valorite elementals (part of the game) and then use those to fight other monsters. All part of the game. I've never done it, but if you are using all valid parts of the game, that sounds to me like strategy, not "taking advantage of an exploit". With that, it's not like they wouldn't be facing big risks in all that. The valorite elemental could attack them, kill them as could the pixies correct? I dunno, it all sounds within the known rules of the game mechanics to me, and I can understand the OP's frustration, especially if he didn't know it was an "exploit" If i had been in his shoes, I think I'd think I was clever and using good strategy myself, not breaking the rules.

Can someone explain how it SHOULD be known to a player that this is an obvious exploit? I guess I'm just really not understanding how or why a player would know this if it wasn't told to them. It sounds like it would like me mining for an hour with a beetle, and a lich attacks me while mining so I use part of the games mechanics and have my beetle kill the lich while I continue to mine... then a staff member suddenly deletes all my ore for the past hour and accuses me of taking advantage of an exploit. I'd be thinking WTF as well. -Just sayin'

 

[Staff]

I believe the issue was that valorite elementals do not take magic damage and reflect all spells, which has since been removed.

 

[jkg8787]

As with all situations I always wait to hear the other side of the story, because people usually want to twist things in their favor.

That said, I see no issue with using MoBs to your advantage. Clever actually. Not really a problem IMO. Oh well.

 

[Staff]

I can see the OP's frustation. So using vulnerable miners using the gargoyles pickaxe to spawn valorite elementals (part of the game) and then use those to fight other monsters. All part of the game. I've never done it, but if you are using all valid parts of the game, that sounds to me like strategy, not "taking advantage of an exploit". With that, it's not like they wouldn't be facing big risks in all that. The valorite elemental could attack them, kill them as could the pixies correct? I dunno, it all sounds within the known rules of the game mechanics to me, and I can understand the OP's frustration, especially if he didn't know it was an "exploit" If i had been in his shoes, I think I'd think I was clever and using good strategy myself, not breaking the rules.

Can someone explain how it SHOULD be known to a player that this is an obvious exploit? I guess I'm just really not understanding how or why a player would know this if it wasn't told to them. It sounds like it would like me mining for an hour with a beetle, and a lich attacks me while mining so I use part of the games mechanics and have my beetle kill the lich while I continue to mine... then a staff member suddenly deletes all my ore for the past hour and accuses me of taking advantage of an exploit. I'd be thinking WTF as well. -Just sayin'

The issue arises due to the location of the spawn. We like where it is placed but this possible outcome was unforseen at the time. It is obvious that these are all in-game mechanics but due to our shortsightedness with the spawn location, people were able to gain an obvious, unintended advantage over the spawn. Using the valorite elementals to trivialize the champion was never our intention and this is why they were removed. While I cannot comment on what was said or how it was handled as I was not there, I can say that we did not intend the spawn to operate in this manner.

 

[Messremb]

I believe the issue was that valorite elementals do not take magic damage and reflect all spells, which has since been removed.

FYI Copper elementals also reflect all magic damage, we have used copper elementals almost as effectively as valorite in the past.

 

[Karl Sagan]

The issue arises due to the location of the spawn. We like where it is placed but this possible outcome was unforseen at the time. It is obvious that these are all in-game mechanics but due to our shortsightedness with the spawn location, people were able to gain an obvious, unintended advantage over the spawn. Using the valorite elementals to trivialize the champion was never our intention and this is why they were removed. While I cannot comment on what was said or how it was handled as I was not there, I can say that we did not intend the spawn to operate in this manner.

Top notch example of how to answer this kind of thing. + 1 for taking the time.

 

[Messremb]

Sorry after rereading I realize that I did not specify that using th val elemental was the exploit, also I think Shane's response included that.

 

[SteelSexi]

The issue arises due to the location of the spawn. We like where it is placed but this possible outcome was unforseen at the time. It is obvious that these are all in-game mechanics but due to our shortsightedness with the spawn location, people were able to gain an obvious, unintended advantage over the spawn. Using the valorite elementals to trivialize the champion was never the staffs intention and this is why it was removed. While I cannot comment on what was said or how it was handled as I was not there, I can say that we did not intend the spawn to operate in this manner.

Thanks for that prompt and very good answer as to why it is an exploit. Now every reader of this thread knows about it and why/how it was never intended.

 

[Kith kannen]

Still not a fan of how it was handled....kind of playing griefer GM to the players. If it had been made known that this was unacceptable then I would laugh and give props but that doesn't seem to have been the case here.

 

[SteelSexi]

While I understand that Kith and agree... perhaps there is something we don't know. What if we found out that the GM involved DID indeed send them 3 messages to "please not use the valorite elemental against pixies as it is a known exploit they are working to fix" - But because the players who received that message were so busy in game they missed the messages?

..I'm not saying or implying that's what happened at all. I have no idea. But I'm simply stating that if we knew the full story and we knew exactly what happened and had the GM's point of view, perhaps we'd feel differently.

Keep in mind as well that the GMs are not perfect and are human just as we are. Not only that, but misunderstandings do happen. I think we can all agree however that better communication could be given if they make content for us and figure out they messed up somewhere or had an oversight. Perhaps they don't tell us about this stuff however simply because if they do, they know damn well more people will rush out and try to take advantage of it when they admit it - as opposed to just reacting to the few players who do figure out the advantage.

 

[Shane]

So i want to start this off by saying I love this shard. i like the people and the events and cool additions the staff have added. there is no doubt that this is shard is amazing due to the hard work and effort of the staff.

that said let me tell you a story. (i waited a day so there would be 0 rage included in this story)

Yesterday our guild was doing the Oaks spawn. when we do this he have a few miners who will try and pull Elementals to help kill the early spawn (this is now against the rules so if you get no further than this don't do it), a few weeks previous i had mentioned that we do this to Shane, who had nothing to say about it, thus i assumed it was ok.

I digress, about half way through level 2 our Val elemental disappears. we just thought maybe it de-spawned oh well, see if we can get another. then one of our miners who was dual clienting kept getting teleported all over the place. we just though hey maybe they put in some new thing that you cant be afk hidden in champ zone. we kept at it, as we finished the second level all of a sudden 4 of our red skulls just vanish... (anyone who has done oaks with no Val Elemental know how devastating that is)

any ways I page in to find out whats going on. the reponse i get is something like "we were watching you guys use an exploit instead of reporting it like you should."

at this point we decided to just abandon the spawn as everyone was pissed.

Now the important thing to note here is we were not pissed about not being able to use the Val Elemental (disappointed maybe), we were pissed because rather that informing us of what they didn't want us doing, the staff just fucked us over, and if we hadn't paged in we would never have found out why. as the creators of the rules its the staffs job to let us know what the rules are, they should not expect us to read their minds and punish us when we don't.

This type of behavior troubles me greatly, and i believe its actions like these that lead to the mistrust of the staff from a large portion of the players (most who feel this way wont say it as the staff is quick to swing the ban hammer). I myself will not be surprised if i get warned or banned for this, but my convictions require i say something.

TLDR

I believe there is a better way, Communication. Rather than swing the ban hammer or mess with people in game, Communicate with them. We as players may not always agree with the choices you as staff make, but in the end your decisions are what matters, but you cant expect us to read your minds. you don't even need explain your decisions to us (though it is helpful when you do) you simply need to let us know. I am grateful for all the staff here does and i really hope this thread can be taken in the way it was meant.

Thanks for all you guys do.

Yeah i guess we didn't make a huge deal over this with communication cause it wasn't a total huge deal to begin with.
But the funny part about this is I could turn around and say the same thing that the players that WERE doing this spawn at that time, realising that they could mine valorite elementals to abuse the spawn (very openly i must say), did also not communicate with us what so ever on this, and failed to report such a mechanical bug.

That being said the rules i guess do state :
"Please note, that if you find a bug or see someone abusing a bug or part of the terms stated above and you chose to abuse it rather than reporting it, it will result in possible removal from the game permanently. Instead we offer wearable rewards for those who come forward with such large (game changing, economy changing) bugs or bring us to light with those who may be using such things. If you find such a thing, we expect all players to do the right thing and come forward with it. Failure to do so could result in possible permanent removal from the game. "


So, by seeing this, instead of paging in and communicating with out staff that this was possible (something that clearly is in error, as it is totally OP/EASY), the players had 2 miners mining hidden with their alt chars sitting there until they finally mined up a Valorite elemental (Clearly abusing the issue). Also that was me who removed your elementals, your miners, and turned your spawn level from 9 TO 5.
I did not fuck you, if anything, you were fucking us, and the servers economy by OPing a champion spawn that drops alot of gold, and has great rewards, by using an in game mechanical bug that obviously shouldn't of been able to be abused.

Then to follow up with a public post about it... well....

JUST THIS:
REPORT THE BUGS, IF SOMETHING IS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE, IT PROBABLY IS.
YOU WILL BE REWARDED BASED ON YOUR BUG SUBMISSIONS.


With that said, we will continue to work harder on communicating with players in game.

 

[Kraden]

Yeah i guess we didn't make a huge deal over this with communication cause it wasn't a total huge deal to begin with.
But the funny part about this is I could turn around and say the same thing that the players that WERE doing this spawn at that time, realising that they could mine valorite elementals to abuse the spawn (very openly i must say), did also not communicate with us what so ever on this, and failed to report such a mechanical bug.

That being said the rules i guess do state :
"Please note, that if you find a bug or see someone abusing a bug or part of the terms stated above and you chose to abuse it rather than reporting it, it will result in possible removal from the game permanently. Instead we offer wearable rewards for those who come forward with such large (game changing, economy changing) bugs or bring us to light with those who may be using such things. If you find such a thing, we expect all players to do the right thing and come forward with it. Failure to do so could result in possible permanent removal from the game. "


So, by seeing this, instead of paging in and communicating with out staff that this was possible (something that clearly is in error, as it is totally OP/EASY), the players had 2 miners mining hidden with their alt chars sitting there until they finally mined up a Valorite elemental (Clearly abusing the issue). Also that was me who removed your elementals, your miners, and turned your spawn level from 9 TO 5.
I did not fuck you, if anything, you were fucking us, and the servers economy by OPing a champion spawn that drops alot of gold, and has great rewards, by using an in game mechanical bug that obviously shouldn't of been able to be abused.

Then to follow up with a public post about it... well....

JUST THIS:
REPORT THE BUGS, IF SOMETHING IS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE, IT PROBABLY IS.
YOU WILL BE REWARDED BASED ON YOUR BUG SUBMISSIONS.


With that said, we will continue to work harder on communicating with players in game.

Not too sure exactly on on the details and could care less either way, but from what I understand it isn't a "Bug". It was an oversight on mechanics and a discovered method of making things easier?