PvP Balance - A Modest Proposal

J

jkg8787

Master
drasked said:
I dont understand why it being able to get damaged is relevant, perhaps you can elaborate further.
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Id like to hear his answer, but id offer that at least there is some counter play in that. In a protracted fight (especially macer) that means that the Swampies AR could be damaged making it less useful at MOB reduction.

Someone in discord I thinkk mentioned that Swamps have bad mount-stamina. Im not sure if that was in relation to ethereal or other mounts in general. Thats another thing. Its maybe ok to have things that provide some perceived benefit but come with a drawback. If Swampies reduced MOB damage but ran out of stamina after 100secs running then that changes things or at least provides a choice to take the item/gear/mount or whatever. Instead of it being "do i take my overpowered item with me" it changes to "do i take my overpowered thing with me that also creates a weakness for me" its not a 100% always on choice
 
drasked

drasked

Grandmaster
Streets said:
They stopped coming into circulation when they disabled conquest but a few are floating. A patch will set you back about 1 mill for miniscule +3 armor. But some of us will min/maxamize where we can over 1 point of difference.
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I think parsnip is talking about people using the new layer system to layer a bunch of robes with AR in different slots, not just 1.
 
J

jkg8787

Master
K A Z said:
it means that it needs maintenance etc. etc.

but in general I'd say that in every decision made we should always look into the past and see what OSI had. It's the custom content (armor patches, talisman, pokemons etc.) that are unbalancing the game even further. Those are the things that we need to take a look at!
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the custom stuff is great too, but it just needs tweaks. would never want it tossed. brings great flair to server. i just think there needs to be distinction between that type of content and PvP.

i know my first question here when i heard of talisman/relic was "i hope that doesnt effect pvp". I was initially told no, but ive come to notice thats not really true. Its not necessarily gamebreaking but it just seems so glaringly obvious in need of attention. This custom stuff is GREAT but it has to be 100% divided from PvP.

I hate to be elitist and I realize the damage tables/cast rates/swing rates have been adjusted over years. Even OSI had different patches. So its total OPINION to say what the best PvP is. But obviously the era as a whole is whats popular and we should aim towards that era (especially for PvP). Doesnt mean we cant have new stuff or even custom stuff but also need a gentle reminder not to break the stuff thats already "perfect"
 
S

Streets

Grandmaster
drasked said:
I think parsnip is talking about people using the new layer system to layer a bunch of robes with AR in different slots, not just 1.
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It is possible, but again due to the rarity and the value this will not be a very often occurrence. Plus you have 3 available slots (ring, bracelet earrings since nobody would is it in a hell or neck/gorget slot) your still talking a single digit 9 armor. Yes it's something but I don't think that's game breaking.
 
S

Streets

Grandmaster
jkg8787 said:
the custom stuff is great too, but it just needs tweaks. would never want it tossed. brings great flair to server. i just think there needs to be distinction between that type of content and PvP.

i know my first question here when i heard of talisman/relic was "i hope that doesnt effect pvp". I was initially told no, but ive come to notice thats not really true. Its not necessarily gamebreaking but it just seems so glaringly obvious in need of attention. This custom stuff is GREAT but it has to be 100% divided from PvP.

I hate to be elitist and I realize the damage tables/cast rates/swing rates have been adjusted over years. Even OSI had different patches. So its total OPINION to say what the best PvP is. But obviously the era as a whole is whats popular and we should aim towards that era (especially for PvP). Doesnt mean we cant have new stuff or even custom stuff but also need a gentle reminder not to break the stuff thats already "perfect"
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Every mmo (including uo still) are making balancing tweaks and changes to get it just right years after initial release. I don't think it's perfect now not do I think there is a way to make it perfect.. but you can continually tweak things .
 
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drasked

drasked

Grandmaster
Streets said:
It is possible, but again due to the rarity and the value this will not be a very often occurrence. Plus you have 3 available slots (ring, bracelet earrings since nobody would is it in a hell or neck/gorget slot) your still talking a single digit 9 armor. Yes it's something but I don't think that's game breaking.
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There are more than 3 layers with the new layer system, like 7 if i'm not mistaken. And it wouldn't surprise me if people were stacking +5 AR faction robes with +3 AR patches or something crazy like that. Don't underestimate peoples wealth.

But this got fixed from what i heard.
 
S

Streets

Grandmaster
drasked said:
There are more than 3 layers with the new layer system, like 7 if i'm not mistaken. And it wouldn't surprise me if people were stacking +5 AR faction robes with +3 AR patches or something crazy like that. Don't underestimate peoples wealth.

But this got fixed from what i heard.
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I didn't think about faction robes, and there are multiple layer locations but they would be using up other locations better served with dedicated pieces I just made an educated guess.
 
parsnip

parsnip

Grandmaster
Streets said:
Hey hey hey now those patches are not easy to come by the cost me a ton of gold for the measly +3 armor which is negligible. That kinda falls into the investment vs reward in my opinion very small.
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One robe patch is fine, plus head and cloak patch. But I don't think any more AR from stacking robes should be allowed. As far as I know, the fix was for the faction robes and the vet patches and layering still works but I'm not 100% sure. A simple cap for AR on clothes would solve it.
 
S

Streets

Grandmaster
Ok I just checked here are the layering deed locations:

Helm
Neck
Ring
Earrings
Bracelet

Nobody would waste a +3 patch for a head or neck as a helm or gorget would offer better than that. Leaving a Max of 3 slots . Again I'm not trying to down play anything but it won't be a common occurrence to see someone stack 3 slots for just +9 armor which won't do much.
 
drasked

drasked

Grandmaster
Streets said:
Ok I just checked here are the layering deed locations:

Helm
Neck
Ring
Earrings
Bracelet

Nobody would waste a +3 patch for a head or neck as a helm or gorget would offer better than that. Leaving a Max of 3 slots . Again I'm not trying to down play anything but it won't be a common occurrence to see someone stack 3 slots for just +9 armor which won't do much.
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I'm not sure on the exact mechanics behind it and how much you can min/max this. But 9 AR is pretty decent on a mage.

I think the argument that something is hard to obtain is a bad one. If something is good people will use it. Look at def tali's and swampys.
 
StegcO

StegcO

Grandmaster
1) Remove Wands (hard to find, hard to restock, n00bs dont use them) = Reduce the gap between pro and n00bs = More PvPers

2) Every Iron weapon become +Damage+Accuracy like a Bronze/Gold runic (needs to be tested) when PVP (attack human?) = Dexxer become cheaper to restock, like mages = More PvPers

=

Tomorrow we will have 300% more pvpers in the fields/raid/protecting from raid/solo

THEN, after we will have this new pvp scenario, we can talk about how to balance 0,1 deley to make more happy top 5 pvpers that want wands+spell sync ecc :D
 
G

girana

Grandmaster
StegcO said:
1) Remove Wands (hard to find, hard to restock, n00bs dont use them) = Reduce the gap between pro and n00bs = More PvPers

2) Every Iron weapon become +Damage+Accuracy like a Bronze/Gold runic (needs to be tested) when PVP (attack human?) = Dexxer become cheaper to restock, like mages = More PvPers

=

Tomorrow we will have 300% more pvpers in the fields/raid/protecting from raid/solo

THEN, after we will have this new pvp scenario, we can talk about how to balance 0,1 deley to make more happy top 5 pvpers that want wands+spell sync ecc :D
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there will not be more pvper
 
smile it's me

smile it's me

Grandmaster
Streets said:
Ok I just checked here are the layering deed locations:

Helm
Neck
Ring
Earrings
Bracelet

Nobody would waste a +3 patch for a head or neck as a helm or gorget would offer better than that. Leaving a Max of 3 slots . Again I'm not trying to down play anything but it won't be a common occurrence to see someone stack 3 slots for just +9 armor which won't do much.
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you missed some:
middle torso
outer torso
shoes
 
GoD PaRtiCal

GoD PaRtiCal

Master
jkg8787 said:
Thats a fairly accurate summation, but your tone suggests aggression like you disagree with me but go on to list points that I agree with.

That was pretty much the agreement across the board in Discord. Talisman's should be de-equipped on aggressive flag.
Someone else mentioned Swamps.
I have the pet peeve about Heal Wands being in limbo status.

That is what the thread is about. Tweaking aspects to be more flat.

There is a discussion that could be had about if two people have talisman and attack either should both just de-equip. or only aggressor.
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My actual opinion is that talismans are fine as they are now and people just like to whine.
  • Their powers are reduced towards pets
  • They push PvPers into doing PvM stuff
  • Great for economy if PvPers are also looking to max out a talisman
  • Brings in new strategies.
  • Everyone can have one
Wands should be usable by all. Non Factioners should not be able to do any beneficial acts on factioners -- including wands. Swampies are negligible and shouldn't even be part of this discussion.
 
StegcO

StegcO

Grandmaster
girana said:
there will not be more pvper
Click to expand...

Maybe there will not be more PvPers;
Probably we will never have back OSI 2001 populations;
For sure we will die and our sons will have to bury us.

We can shutdown UOForever or we can shot suggestions/ideas, i really think removing wands and modify Iron weapon (in a way that needs to be thinked and tested) to make pvp dexxer cheaper to play will incrase the n00bs that will start to fight.

But maybe I'm wrong, we only can try, hope and see what happen :)

P.S. Obviously the same about Talisman, every single pixel that incrase that gap between n00bs and PROs is bad for PvP scenario, IMO.
 
T

TyroneG

Master
Remove any all talisman, meta, relic effects (passive or active) on any PVP combat situation. I would prefer whether they are aggressor or not, but if nothing else disable it as soon as any damage is dealt. These items were added under the premise that they would have no impact on PVP. Staff has done a fairly decent job at balancing meta pets so that they are not that much stronger than normal dragons in PVP situations. Should do the same with talismans.

Same situation with swampies. Remove effects as soon as they enter any PVP situation.

Make firebreath randomized instead of the system now - only activates after a certain amount of time and able to be "loaded". Instead firebreath can go off any time.

Get rid of multiple layered items with +3 armor patch. You got rid of armored faction robe layering. Be consistent.

Increase bandage timer by 2 seconds. Remove the 2 second penalty for being poisoned while bandaging and make it so that multiple bandage slips heal slightly more than the current amount. This would hopefully make PVM dexxers a bit more viable as far as tanking/healing while also balancing the incredibly fast bandage times in PVP.

Increase stun rate and/or change stun and para blow length to 4 seconds. Too much running and the stun rate seems abnormally low here. This would cut down on incessant kiting and make people focus more on crossheals and positioning.

Make it so that pots can be thrown with bows in hand. Never really understood why this mechanic was implemented, but I don't see how it could become that much overpowered.

Make tamers require the amount of lore needed to tame the base level of creature in order to control. I.e. a mare (whether this be a normal nightmare, nightbear, nightllama, etc.) should require 90 lore. OR make tamers require double the amount of skillpoints of taming required to tame a creature in both taming/lore. I.e. mare normally takes 90 taming so 180 skillpoints in taming/lore in order to control. There is no reason that by having 120 taming a person should be able to drop their lore to 20 and pick up 80 skillpoints at no cost while still being able to control a mare+dragon.

Remove the no stun/para blow while a tamer mechanic as after the previous fix these templates would actually require the tamer to sacrifice something instead of get them at no cost. If a tamer is crazy enough to drop resist, meditation, or something in order to incorporate stun into their template let them. They are actually having to make tradeoffs in order to do so.

I think it may have been changed already, but if not change it so that stun chance scales based on anatomy level instead of only requiring a base of 80 anatomy. Conversely, make it so that inscription gains levels of reflect based on skill level per 10 points (similar to alchemy) instead of 100 inscription or nothing.

Slightly increase the next spell delay ("You have not recovered from casting another spell"). You most notice how fast this is on smaller spells - mainly mini heal. Think this would be a lot better for dueling as it would put more emphasis on timing a gheal in between damage instead of spamming an uninterruptible mini heal over and over. This also would hopefully help with the wand problem I talk about below.

Wands:

Not sure what the solution is with these. I was mostly against them when they were added due to how they had affected PVP on UOG. PVP was one button weaken/lightning wand macros that completely take any skill out of the game. PVPing without wands there was practically unheard of. Before wands were introduced here I enjoyed the change from UOG; being able to actually see and heal ebolt syncs, etc. on the field was a breath of fresh air. It took some time, but PVP is starting to be the same way here now.

That said, I'm not sure if the best solution is to outright get rid of them. I would be fine with it either way, just as I was when they were added. I stand by my position that either wands should be available to everyone or nobody at all.

If nothing else they should be changed in the following ways:

For starters, it should definitely at least be made impossible to weaken/lightning wand. As I said earlier, if the next spell delay is made a bit longer, hopefully it would solve this alone. If this alone does not solve the issue, I believe a slightly longer cast time for lightning wands specifically would be a better solution than further increasing the object delay for wands. With the object delay they already feel clunky, so I would much rather a longer cast time.

It would be ideal if there was no delay macro in the clients, however that is practically impossible. I'm not sure you can really change wands in a way so that they can't be synced with explosion with these frame perfect delayed macros. The problem you will run into is that if you increase the delay so much that it can't be synced they will be basically useless anyways. Maybe there could be some spell mitigation system like (I believe) An Corp used to use in which if an explosion spell hits any lightnings cast from lightning wands are resisted for the next split second. That way they could still be used offensively to chase people down while also solving the 1 button sync issue. Haven't really put much thought into this, so could be a decent idea or could be complete trash. If they were changed in this way they could also lessen the very long item use delay on wands that currently make them feel so clunky.
 
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Genocide Pete

Genocide Pete

Adept
drasked said:
Are swampies not along the same line? (i have never played OSI)
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Swamp dragons were essential on OSI, as they reduced player damage by 20% as well. I think they're fine here, because they're expensive but not prohibitively so for those who want a relatively small boost in power. Even if you only made 100k per hour farming, that's about 10 hours of work. Not terrible, and helps the economy.

As for AR clothing, I've never understood why it exists. Why create an item that permanently makes all characters stronger against a specific class without a counterbalance? If we're going down this road, where's the +magic resist patch?

The Commanding Lord armor is another example of this. It's a blessed suit of 45 AR meddable armor, again without a counterbalance, and only four people have access to it.
 
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StegcO

StegcO

Grandmaster
If we talk about how much money ou need for an item Swmapy is 800k, head ar patch is 200k and cloack 20k, +3 i think 900k

but always the same problem, incrase gap between peoplz
 
J

jkg8787

Master
TyroneG said:
Remove any all talisman, meta, relic effects (passive or active) on any PVP combat situation. I would prefer whether they are aggressor or not, but if nothing else disable it as soon as any damage is dealt. These items were added under the premise that they would have no impact on PVP. Staff has done a fairly decent job at balancing meta pets so that they are not that much stronger than normal dragons in PVP situations. Should do the same with talismans.

Same situation with swampies. Remove effects as soon as they enter any PVP situation.

Make firebreath randomized instead of the system now - only activates after a certain amount of time and able to be "loaded". Instead firebreath can go off any time.

Get rid of multiple layered items with +3 armor patch. You got rid of armored faction robe layering. Be consistent.

Increase bandage timer by 2 seconds. Remove the 2 second penalty for being poisoned while bandaging and make it so that multiple bandage slips heal slightly more than the current amount. This would hopefully make PVM dexxers a bit more viable as far as tanking/healing while also balancing the incredibly fast bandage times in PVP.

Increase stun rate and/or change stun and para blow length to 4 seconds. Too much running and the stun rate seems abnormally low here. This would cut down on incessant kiting and make people focus more on crossheals and positioning.

Make it so that pots can be thrown with bows in hand. Never really understood why this mechanic was implemented, but I don't see how it could become that much overpowered.

Make tamers require the amount of lore needed to tame the base level of creature in order to control. I.e. a mare (whether this be a normal nightmare, nightbear, nightllama, etc.) should require 90 lore. OR make tamers require double the amount of skillpoints of taming required to tame a creature in both taming/lore. I.e. mare normally takes 90 taming so 180 skillpoints in taming/lore in order to control. There is no reason that by having 120 taming a person should be able to drop their lore to 20 and pick up 80 skillpoints at no cost while still being able to control a mare+dragon.

Remove the no stun/para blow while a tamer mechanic as after the previous fix these templates would actually require the tamer to sacrifice something instead of get them at no cost. If a tamer is crazy enough to drop resist, meditation, or something in order to incorporate stun into their template let them. They are actually having to make tradeoffs in order to do so.

I think it may have been changed already, but if not change it so that stun chance scales based on anatomy level instead of only requiring a base of 80 anatomy. Conversely, make it so that inscription gains levels of reflect based on skill level per 10 points (similar to alchemy) instead of 100 inscription or nothing.

Slightly increase the next spell delay ("You have not recovered from casting another spell"). You most notice how fast this is on smaller spells - mainly mini heal. Think this would be a lot better for dueling as it would put more emphasis on timing a gheal in between damage instead of spamming an uninterruptible mini heal over and over. This also would hopefully help with the wand problem I talk about below.

Wands:

Not sure what the solution is with these. I was mostly against them when they were added due to how they had affected PVP on UOG. PVP was one button weaken/lightning wand macros that completely take any skill out of the game. PVPing without wands there was practically unheard of. Before wands were introduced here I enjoyed the change from UOG; being able to actually see and heal ebolt syncs, etc. on the field was a breath of fresh air. It took some time, but PVP is starting to be the same way here now.

That said, I'm not sure if the best solution is to outright get rid of them. I would be fine with it either way, just as I was when they were added. I stand by my position that either wands should be available to everyone or nobody at all.

If nothing else they should be changed in the following ways:

For starters, it should definitely at least be made impossible to weaken/lightning wand. As I said earlier, if the next spell delay is made a bit longer, hopefully it would solve this alone. If this alone does not solve the issue, I believe a slightly longer cast time for lightning wands specifically would be a better solution than further increasing the object delay for wands. With the object delay they already feel clunky, so I would much rather a longer cast time.

It would be ideal if there was no delay macro in the clients, however that is practically impossible. I'm not sure you can really change wands in a way so that they can't be synced with explosion with these frame perfect delayed macros. The problem you will run into is that if you increase the delay so much that it can't be synced they will be basically useless anyways. Maybe there could be some spell mitigation system like (I believe) An Corp used to use in which if an explosion spell hits any lightnings cast from lightning wands are resisted for the next split second. That way they could still be used offensively to chase people down while also solving the 1 button sync issue. Haven't really put much thought into this, so could be a decent idea or could be complete trash. If they were changed in this way they could also lessen the very long item use delay on wands that currently make them feel so clunky.
Click to expand...
Damn. Great. Agree with most.

Especially stun tamers. Make stun tamers take 120Tame 120Lore plus 80+ Anat +100 Wrestle or whatever and then a stun tamer is giving up lots of defense or med or w.e to get stuns off. Maybe im a bit more extreme with the 120s but i actually just wanted to highlight that one. Agree with most of list.

I personally like wands except that they start to become mandatory and then i dont like random MOB loot drops becoming mandatory. I prefer extreme options. Either get rid of them. Or do something like let everyone use them but increase drop rates HUGE. Or make them craftable somehow.
 
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