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PK Statloss & Mount Stamina Discussions.

Discussion in 'News Archive' started by Shane, Mar 18, 2014.

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  1. kurtis

    kurtis Grandmaster

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    Mount fatigue. Thank you. I've been waiting for this thread since I joined the server.

    Mount fatigue is not solely about catching someone who is running away. Mount fatigue, where implemented, has always been about strategically utilizing your sprint capability. UO on this server is the only game I have ever played where you can sprint at max speed indefinitely with absolutely no penalty. It's just silly and counter intuitive. Whilst in a fight, sprint capabilities are supposed to be used sparingly and when needed. Not 100% of the time no matter what.

    People are encouraged to actually stay on-screen and fight the good fight, rather than sprint around like a monkey with it's head chopped off, because if a third-party shows up, or the person needs to desperately flee for some other reason, they have retained much of their Sprint reserve. UO was never a sprint-fest. That's because mount fatigue made it a poor choice. People who abused sprinting learned very, very quickly that they needed to be more strategic with their mount running. Players were encouraged to stick on screen and fight.

    For this reason, I personally vote against tying mount fatigue to personal stamina, and also against making mount stamina somehow attached to how low your health is. If someone has been legitimately providing a good fight to his opponent, and staying on screen, but their opponent gets a whopper of an explosion-ebolt, or a crushing blow, and they finally need to flee a little because they are low health... they are suddenly punished and their sprinting his hindered unless they have tons of refreshes? No. Over the course of a battle, the person who has needed to sprint the least should be rewarded for his skill, by having a larger sprint reserve. This isn't a foreign concept. It's how UO always was.

    I am a proponent of mount fatigue as an entirely separate thing than personal stamina. Both ethereals and regular pets can be fed to regenerate mount stamina. Each piece of fruit regenerates 25% mount stamina. Put a 2 second delay on re-mounting, so low-pingers can't macro it without the risk of getting their mount attacked. While ethereals go safely into the pack, they take a long time to re-activate and it is a huge risk to jump on an ethereal in the middle of a fight. As for degeneration rate, maybe this can be tested on Test server?

    Also, I'd like to point out that mount fatigue adds the potential for builds that don't have alchemy to chase down targets. This would be huge.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2014
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  2. EmmaTudor

    EmmaTudor Adept

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    Suikoden presented a good argument above, however, I am strongly opposed to potions being part of the equation unless severe reuse timers are placed on Refresh pots. The way I see it is, if you've been running from someone for over 1-2 minutes, and your pursuer has managed to keep up for you that long, you should be forced to either fight or die.

    If you link the mount stamina system to player stamina and allow potions to refresh your mount stamina, NOTHING will change from the current state of the game. As it is people carry 20+ of each potion, it's not that hard to recall and refill potions after each fight to ensure you never run out of mount stamina. It's a good idea, but for it to work, stamina drain would have to be so severe that you'd literally be popping a potion every 15-20 seconds to have any impact on pvp. Therefore, the only clear solution is mount stamina and player stamina that are not linked in anyway.
     
  3. Suikoden

    Suikoden Expert

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    My issue with this idea has always been, you would honestly want to dismount ANY mount mid fight? Feeding or applying an item to a ethereal after dismount at this point is certain death. Dismounting a pet to feed it or tell it to follow also give a high probability of death. You might as well introduce bolas as it is basically the same thing. Which I am completely against. Your mount fatigues and you need to refresh it in some way, totally makes sense. Dismounting and feeding/following is not the way. That is uoforever.. and this is not uoforever.




    Thank you for your feedback :) My only issue in what you are saying is about that "NOTHING" will change. Why wouldn't it change? Your right I carry 20+ TF pots as it is and I am CONSTANTLY running out of TF pots. Constantly. Most people that I have killed after fighting them for a bit, also out of TF pots. We need to chug them to compete, stun punch or swing at max speed. This introduces ANOTHER means to burn that pool. If I am burning through them now it will only increase and make me think about what or how I use them. This is why I said the values themselves can be tweaked in a manner that we SEE a difference, but it doesn't completely destroy the game play making it ridiculous.

    Also your comment about someone running for 1-2 minutes they should be forced to fight or die. In a equal battle you would have fought this person for a good amount of time and they would ONLY every run for three reason during an equal fight. They have burnt up their resources, they are being ganked, or they realize they are outmatched and decide to run instead. The point is that they would have already burnt up a bunch of their pots at this point. Recalling is inevitable in EITHER my situation or yours, unless they are flagged and can't. The end result if flagged is their resources would be depleted.

    Outside of this IF any person is running 100% right off the start of the fight. This person clearly doesn't want to fight and are equally prepared to avoid the encounter. This points to those people getting steam rolled and shit on. Most of these people DON'T want to give away their free loot so why should they not have the opportunity to get rocked by someone 1,000x better. Like I said in an equal fight two people WILL fight each other and make decisions on how they use their resources. We already do this now. Out of mandrake root? Bolts. Out of cure pots? Botls. Running low on TF pots? Bolts. It's all about the choices we decide to make during the encouters.
     
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  4. kurtis

    kurtis Grandmaster

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    That's the point. Mount refreshing was never meant to be executed in the middle of a fight. Or if you did, you always took a huge risk. Mount refreshing is mainly for people who are just running around Britannia alone peacefully, or as a way to recuperate after a fight (or to prepare before a fight). Like Emma said, it's supposed to encourage a fight or die mentality, not provide a minor annoyance so that you can keep fleeing from a fight and continue running like Forrest Gump until the end of time.

    uoforever didn't come up with dismounting and feeding...OSI did. Mount stamina was always a huge part of PvP on OSI servers. Don't you remember when people actually trotted around on their horses, rather than just sprinting everywhere? That's because of mount fatigue. uoforever also implemented it to prevent *exactly* what happens on this server - to prevent sprinting at full speed until the sun comes up.

    If the person really doesn't want to fight (someone being PK'ed), then they can just recall. Or find another creative way to escape. Or...god forbid....their character just *gasp* dies, if a group of PK'es executes a nice rush. It's not as if they would sprint 10 screens and then become fatigued and die to PK's. We're talking about hindering the ability to run from Brit to Minoc. Again, this is not a foreign concept, or something that we just saw on freeshards like uoforever. It's how UO always was. I was honestly shocked when I first started this server and realized that I could run forever, or chase forever.
     
  5. Evolsin

    Evolsin Neophyte

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    I played osi since before trammel up to just before the gargoyle expansion on Great Lakes I never remember encountering mount fatigue until I was playing free shards looking for one as good as uof a lot of ideas are great but mount fatigue is not one of them I remember when I first started here and when u ran out of stam u were locked in place till u had over five stam and then u could trot I had maxing for that reason and killing people was so easy I could have played one handed I think your mount becoming useless after running so long will be the same I mean if you do something like linking mount stam to player stam wouldn't a mace destroy mounts then? U can drink the pot not the horse
     
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  6. NoXXeD

    NoXXeD Grandmaster

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    Why feel sorry? I think of it as a challenge. I don't script or use any cheats, It's all about getting the timing down. Using them in dumps that's VERY tricky. I think they are okay the way they are right now.
     
  7. halygon

    halygon Grandmaster

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    Halygon
    Idk, once you understand the mechanic - exp pots are easy as pie to throw. Even dumps aren't so hard.. but they do take practice.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  8. Suikoden

    Suikoden Expert

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    I have a hard time understanding exactly what you are trying to get at here. You mention that is was never to be done DURING the middle of a fight (but it will be) and that is was for people running in brit peacefully (plus everyone else). It isn't us and them or you and the other people, it is all of us. You want to hinder the ability to run from brit to minoc. I get that, it totally makes sense similar to the idea I propose. However, there again is a huge difference between the two. We both talk about what we should do to refresh the pool. The end of the means is the same mine provides the ability for the player to actively manage HOW this is done. Your idea involves a quick fix to dismount , refresh, and then have a high percentage of being forced to deal with a consequence. This consequence is, as you put it, fight or die. Or dismount and hope to god in the 1/2-2 seconds it takes to perform the macro it doesn't get blown to hell.

    Here is the problem with what you are saying. You want a way to to refresh a mount that will 100% put the opposite party at a serious disadvantage. This is basically say I want you sir to lose your stamina, dismount immediately, and I will attack your horse. I will then chase you on foot and with high probability kill you. You want an easy way to put the odds of the fight into your court. There is something else that goes by this very same logic. A bola. The point of a bola is to get them off their mount so you can chase them down, trample them, and kill them. Your idea has the same result, get them off their horse so you can trample and kill them. Why would that even need to happen when you can accomplish the same results by so many different means. If we wanted to have people dismounted we would have bolas, lances, Xbows or whatever other means of dismountery that existed.

    There should absolutely no reason to dismount to refresh. Both of our examples provide a similar results in the end and can be tweaked in a way to have an effective means of stamina drain. So what is so bad about having to chug a pot if in the end the result would be the same? In my eyes it is either a TF pot or a bola honestly.
     
  9. Ddlywhisper

    Ddlywhisper Expert

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    I would agree with this. Although I completely hate the anti-recall if your flagged, I deal with it.

    In most cases, PKs have a more organized group running through rolling ever single blue out there. If organized in a guild, they more than likely also have a voice chat going on. 9 outta 10 times, the blue has no time to react to a 3 or 4 vs 1 gank. If a red has a timer because they are in combat, that might give a little more advantage to the other side. You don't normally see reds out farming, period. So there has to be a way to give the other guys a chance in some way to fight back.
     
  10. Ddlywhisper

    Ddlywhisper Expert

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    True! You also have to think though that prime PvP 10 or more years ago was also done with shitty internet connections (think Dial UP!) If PvP was awesome then with that type of connection, omfg!! how much more awesome should it be now with the connections of today! I loved to PvP back then and today (with my rusty skills) am trying to readjust to the differences now, but I'm all for giving more balance for all.
     
  11. kurtis

    kurtis Grandmaster

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    I'm not going to get into an argument. We disagree. But I will say that you either you did not understand my point, or I did not communicate it well enough, or both. My point was that refreshing a mount in the middle of a battle should not be viable. If you run out of mount stam, that's it, you've ran out for the battle and now you have to deal with it. You *could* try to refresh it, but there is a huge risk that it won't work out. You say that it will be done in the middle of a fight regardless, and I just can't see that happening. If someone jumps off their mount, it's getting attacked, simple as that. And that's what they get for making a stupid move. Jumping off a mount in the middle of a battle to feed your horse....step back and think about that for a second. It just sounds stupid, and I am not proposing that at all. I do not want people off their mount.
     
  12. Dewderonomy

    Dewderonomy Grandmaster

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    Brandon Van Raily
    I think the issue, Kurtis, is that a mount running out of stamina isn't a "stupid move"; it's mechanics. It's like "Oh, I can sit here and not play the game for 5 minutes while I wait for my mount to stam up." Otherwise, what happens when you're PvMing? You're moving. What happens if the monsters get the better of you? You're running off to heal. You're running through the dungeon, fighting monsters, getting gold.

    What are reds doing? They're recall hopping from place to place, meaning they are at full stamina when they come up on you. Playing the game normally shouldn't be considered "a stupid move", especially when the only way to correct it is to dismount and basically hand the enemy your head on a platter. The link to character stamina means you can play as normal, and manage resources as you already do. The difference is now Stamina is back to being one of those resources to manage. If it's mount-specific, you aren't managing a resource, you're managing time. Time waiting for stam to pop back up, because in the middle of a dungeon, hopping off your mount could wind up with it taking a corp por to the face from whatever it is you're hunting.

    It just isn't practical. Sure, people will claim there are "easy" macros to set up that dismount, feed and remount, but if your connection and/or computer isn't up to par (and if it is, wtf are you doing playing UO?), then those macros simply do not function reliably.
     
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  13. jenny_jugs

    jenny_jugs Adept

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    lock this thread.

    i can't even be assed reading it anymore, too many nitwit trammies posting with NO FUCKING IDEA!!
     
  14. NoXXeD

    NoXXeD Grandmaster

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    yes once you understand them, but that takes time to do. If you take the 100 points and the time to learn it, you should have SOME benefit. I don't agree that EVERYONE should have to have alchy to compete though.
     
  15. Dellan

    Dellan Grandmaster

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    I am torn. On one side, I think people should get better at catching their prey and work on their running skills, on the other, I do admit that chases can take pretty long. Sooooo... How does it look so far, @Shane ? Will the stam loss be tied to player or mount stamina?
     
  16. Shane

    Shane Guest

    Alright we for sure have enough information from multiple different play styles to make a reasonable judgement call on this.

    We will let you all know what will happen in the near future here! Thanks for being a part of this!
     
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