Diversifying Mage PvP

Oh. So if someone offers to duel you mage vs mage, and brings pets on a tamer mage, you're good with it? Seems contradictory to all of your conversations with Bobby. Then again, I guess that means you've been dodging mage vs mage duels. Your call, your logic.

And this game should be balanced all-around, not just mage vs mage. That's one area with what's possibly the largest discrepancy.

... did you post a video of group vs group field PvP to argue that there's mage diversity in mage 1v1? What?

Winstonian said:

Oh. So if someone offers to duel you mage vs mage, and brings pets on a tamer mage, you're good with it? Seems contradictory to all of your conversations with Bobby. Then again, I guess that means you've been dodging mage vs mage duels. Your call, your logic.

And this game should be balanced all-around, not just mage vs mage. That's one area with what's possibly the largest discrepancy.

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I'm done with this, tbh.. you have no clue about how PVP is right now and are basically just making things up. I'm glad that Staff is wise enough not to follow any of your advices as they have a HUGE ass rat's tail.

Winstonian said:

... did you post a video of group vs group field PvP to argue that there's mage diversity in mage 1v1? What?

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who 1v1s in 2018? Where do these 1v1s happen? How would they happen if PVP was crippled? You give no real suggestions that would not lead us to a point where the whole PVP system would need to be revamped.

Winstonian said:

Sure. The same thing that would be wrong with giving everyone a tamed dragon with 0 Taming/Lore: it conflicts with what PvP should be to many, doesn't function as it did in the past, and has led to a clear-cut meta mage 1v1 build.

Now, some would just say "adapt, run around with your free dragon and enjoy the kills, this is UOF", and many still wouldn't like it.

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So you are basically saying that explo pots are out of proportion?

I disagree with this, i think without explo potions (or pets) nobody decent is dying in 1v1. This would be very problematic if you want a healthy pvp scene. Elitists would pretty much be immortal and all the newbies would be dying.

Removing explo pots all together (even from a "just in town" perspective) would not diversify at all, it would simply put many viable templates out of business and create an even more solid meta of 1 template ruling supreme.

Also it seems like you are not keeping in mind that any changes to influence 1v1 will also have impact on other aspects of the game. 1v1 is a very niche market from my experience and defintly not a stepping stone for people to get in to pvp, people tend to get in to pvp through group combat.

It's interesting to speculate about a sosaria without purple drank, but you would have to come up with a really solid plan to change a lot of mechanics for this to be viable. So far you haven't even entered the stadium yet when it comes to this.

I've said this numerous times: I don't feel like you balance the "nobody would die" issue by just giving players extra damage with little to no drawback. It was possibly an attempt at correcting that issue, sure, but there are other ways to correct that issue that should be explored.

If expl/stun were removed, players would choose between scribe, healing, poisoning, and possibly other uoforever builds for 1v1. Of course, this comes down to balancing: establishing multiple viable builds for mage 1v1.

I don't even want expl pots removed from PvP. I just think that players should either not throw them in town without risk (other builds are used in town) or that expl/stun should be separated (other builds are used in general). Of course, balancing enters here.

The expl/stun mages have stated that expl/stun is the meta mage 1v1 build, while arguing that many builds are equally as effective, while arguing that no one would die without expl potions, while stating that the best player would win regardless of skill. It's a confusing train of thought... defending the build that nets them incredibly easy kills against PvM and other PvP chars, while trying to downplay its effectiveness. There's a reason that nerfing expl pots in numerous ways is a reoccurring topic on UOF (K A Z included).

Winstonian said:

I've said this numerous times: I don't feel like you balance the "nobody would die" issue by just giving players extra damage with little to no drawback. It was possibly an attempt at correcting that issue, sure, but there are other ways to correct that issue that should be explored.

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I wouldn't call it extra damage with little to no drawback, the incorrect usage of explo pots can have devestating effects.

I'm sure there are ways to make UO pvp work without explo pots, even tho explo pots are an UOR era thing if i'm not mistaken, so in line with nostalgia. But it would require an enormous ammount of changes without any guarantee that people who currently enjoy pvp on UOF will still do so or that people who don't enjoy pvp on UOF will do so.

So far i have not seen a single suggestion in combination with removing explo pots that accounts for the fact that people will simply not die 1v1 and that doesnt have massive impact on other aspects of the game. It's not surprising since this would be quite difficult.

Winstonian said:

If expl/stun were removed, players would choose between scribe, healing, poisoning, and possibly other uoforever builds for 1v1. Of course, this comes down to balancing: establishing multiple viable builds for mage 1v1.

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Just removing explo pots would make many of the templates you listed unable to kill a decent player 1v1, thus removing diversity. People would most likely gravitate towards using tamers, a non-newbie friendly template. Sure you can follow it up by saying "and change some other stuff to balance it out" but that is just the hallmark of a bad suggestion imo.

Winstonian said:

I don't even want expl pots removed from PvP. I just think that players should either not throw them in town without risk (other builds are used in town) or that expl/stun should be separated (other builds are used in general). Of course, balancing enters here.

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Again, removing explo pots will not create diversity. People will simply gravitate towards the few templates left that are able to kill a decent player. Following this statement up with "balancing enters here" is the hallmark of a bad suggestion.

Winstonian said:

The expl/stun mages have stated that expl/stun is the meta mage 1v1 build, while arguing that many builds are equally as effective, while arguing that no one would die without expl potions, while stating that the best player would win regardless of skill. It's a confusing train of thought... defending the build that nets them incredibly easy kills against PvM and other PvP chars, while trying to downplay its effectiveness. There's a reason that nerfing expl pots in numerous ways is a reoccurring topic on UOF (K A Z included).

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I know it's hard to create a coherent picture of what is going on through other people opinions, perhaps you should go out and try check for yourself?

Gimme dat 120 mage and eval PS plz, I wanna do 120 dmg with exp fs

They aren't in line with UOR because they don't splash. The majority of structured PvP was not this way because of that.

Here are a few suggestions to fix the problem of damage: 1) create a wider damage range for damage spells, or 2) increase spell damage overall. (Fixing running would also help.) You have damage that it consistently too low to defeat the available healing, so, either provide a slightly more effective RNG element to spell damage or increase damage outright. (I'd opt for the RNG.)

Balancing PvP isn't the "mark of a bad suggestion"... it's the answer. Balance is the essence to every game, UOF being no different. Of course, the expl/stun mages believed in this when stun mages were dominating PvP, insisting that stun tamers be nerfed. Love how selective that is.

Ohhh. Another possibility to recovering from the loss of expl potion damage would to slightly increase the casting time of Heal.

Winstonian said:

Balancing PvP isn't the "mark of a bad suggestion"... it's the answer.

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Maybe you misunderstood me.

You repetedly suggest changes and when it gets interesting you say things like "we can balance this out" and that is the hallmark of a bad suggestion.

You: Lets remove explo pots.

Me: but how would anyone kill anyone?

You: We will balance it out

drasked said:

Maybe you misunderstood me.

You repetedly suggest changes and when it gets interesting you say things like "we can balance this out" and that is the hallmark of a bad suggestion.

You: Lets remove explo pots.

Me: but how would anyone kill anyone?

You: We will balance it out

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... what? I've given numerous suggestions. And the answer is correct: things need to be balanced.

Winstonian said:

... what? I've given numerous suggestions. And the answer is correct: things need to be balanced.

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Empty suggestions, because when it gets interesting, instead of going in to specifics you say things like "well balance it out" like it means something.

Winstonian said:

They aren't in line with UOR because they don't splash. The majority of structured PvP was not this way because of that.

Here are a few suggestions to fix the problem of damage: 1) create a wider damage range for damage spells, or 2) increase spell damage overall. (Fixing running would also help.) You have damage that it consistently too low to defeat the available healing, so, either provide a slightly more effective RNG element to spell damage or increase damage outright. (I'd opt for the RNG.)

Balancing PvP isn't the "mark of a bad suggestion"... it's the answer. Balance is the essence to every game, UOF being no different. Of course, the expl/stun mages believed in this when stun mages were dominating PvP, insisting that stun tamers be nerfed. Love how selective that is.

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Don't be talking about spell damage increase, if genocide Pete hears about this you'll have a short forum career! Haha

monkey thread good god

drasked said:

Empty suggestions, because when it gets interesting, instead of going in to specifics you say things like "well balance it out" like it means something.

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... what?

im new to this server - roughly a few weeks. i agree with his assessment. the pots are spammed so heavily, i don't even see the need to poison people at all, unless you get a lucky bandage block. people spam explode pots with 100% accuracy because of macros; OSI, at it's base - you use the explode pot, the timing and last target was up to you. the PVP here is a shadow of its former self which was based more on spell timings and stuns. I had considered a mace character, but also worthless with how people spam refresh pots. i have actually "cornered" some pk'ers between myself and paragons/multiple monsters only to chug 4-5 refresh pots and run away

there isn't a stat loss ( that im aware of ) so the risk/reward of murdering is 0. murder until hearts content and not have any risk of dying for a stat loss etc. seeing players with sword and board being murdered by a stun mage with explode pots at brit west graveyard is a sad performance of skill here

Atma said:

im new to this server - roughly a few weeks. i agree with his assessment. the pots are spammed so heavily, i don't even see the need to poison people at all, unless you get a lucky bandage block. people spam explode pots with 100% accuracy because of macros; OSI, at it's base - you use the explode pot, the timing and last target was up to you. the PVP here is a shadow of its former self which was based more on spell timings and stuns. I had considered a mace character, but also worthless with how people spam refresh pots. i have actually "cornered" some pk'ers between myself and paragons/multiple monsters only to chug 4-5 refresh pots and run away

there isn't a stat loss ( that im aware of ) so the risk/reward of murdering is 0. murder until hearts content and not have any risk of dying for a stat loss etc. seeing players with sword and board being murdered by a stun mage with explode pots at brit west graveyard is a sad performance of skill here

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i think an easy fix to these issues would be putting a cooldown on pots. even in real life you can only drink so much, maybe all you need to diversify the pvp

Atma said:

im new to this server - roughly a few weeks. i agree with his assessment. the pots are spammed so heavily, i don't even see the need to poison people at all, unless you get a lucky bandage block. people spam explode pots with 100% accuracy because of macros; OSI, at it's base - you use the explode pot, the timing and last target was up to you. the PVP here is a shadow of its former self which was based more on spell timings and stuns. I had considered a mace character, but also worthless with how people spam refresh pots. i have actually "cornered" some pk'ers between myself and paragons/multiple monsters only to chug 4-5 refresh pots and run away

there isn't a stat loss ( that im aware of ) so the risk/reward of murdering is 0. murder until hearts content and not have any risk of dying for a stat loss etc. seeing players with sword and board being murdered by a stun mage with explode pots at brit west graveyard is a sad performance of skill here

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There is stat loss on this server.

Atma said:

im new to this server - roughly a few weeks. i agree with his assessment. the pots are spammed so heavily, i don't even see the need to poison people at all, unless you get a lucky bandage block. people spam explode pots with 100% accuracy because of macros; OSI, at it's base - you use the explode pot, the timing and last target was up to you. the PVP here is a shadow of its former self which was based more on spell timings and stuns. I had considered a mace character, but also worthless with how people spam refresh pots. i have actually "cornered" some pk'ers between myself and paragons/multiple monsters only to chug 4-5 refresh pots and run away

there isn't a stat loss ( that im aware of ) so the risk/reward of murdering is 0. murder until hearts content and not have any risk of dying for a stat loss etc. seeing players with sword and board being murdered by a stun mage with explode pots at brit west graveyard is a sad performance of skill here

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It's a shame, because UOF feels like the last bastion of hope for "good" UO. Once a person gets into PvP, and sees how pots (and the associated scripts) are so heavily relied on by the "PvPers", they have no interest in continuing.

I never wanted them taken out completely, but I've always felt that the skills should be adjusted/balanced to make it so being able to throw pots makes you unable to have other skills at your disposal.