change back some of these horrible changes

Shane

Shane

Administrator
Staff member
TrustyPatchez said:
I have brought up my concerns with the unfinished militia system a few times only to be told that it was finished. There is no way that this was the final image for militia so to be told it is done is a huge let down.
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Militias isn't finished.
Not sure who said that it was finished (it isn't)... It will always be an on going thing. The best thing about the system is it's more simplified so we have a ton we can add onto it since it's not an already bloated system. Barely anyone actually played and used all of the faction functions.

We could put the best parts of factions in militias. We are open to ideas but when we had factions no one played it and everyone liked the idea of militias more, now we have militias, people want factions. It really won't matter what we do, people will either pvp or not pvp- there is no one system or content you can put in that will force people into pvp. It's something we've learned through trial and error.
 
KoldesLives

KoldesLives

Journeyman
Shane said:
Barely anyone actually played and used all of the faction functions.
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Shane said:
We could put the best parts of factions in militias. We are open to ideas but when we had factions no one played it and everyone liked the idea of militias more, now we have militias, people want factions. It really won't matter what we do, people will either pvp or not pvp- there is no one system or content you can put in that will force people into pvp.
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Thank you for responding to the dialogue, Shane. I appreciate that as I'm sure others do as well. And thank you for acknowledging that it's not finished. My question to you though is - what's the priority level for getting it finished? What ideas are being considered?

I think that "no one played the faction as it was" because of the problem that you and other staff identified: the consolidation of power into one big group and the zerging down of anyone else. I think that fundamental part of factions was truly an issue, so, the guild function where everyone is in their own groups is a great resolution to that. That was a good step.

However, the rest of factions that people did like, essentially, the incentive to fight, the incentive for rewards, is lost within the current militia format. (The community has offered many suggestions for better incentives.) So, we have removed the consolidation of power problem with factions, but, we lost the incentives to do it within militia. We solved one problem but then created another. That's why I think the suggestion of going back to the incentives of old factions with the structure of guilds being their own teams/groups is a great compromise.

I think that staff sees as it as "players won't be happy either way" but i don't think that's true. I think we just shifted what the problem is, instead of addressing all of it at once.

It's not about forcing people to PvP, I think it's about giving people a reason and incentive to fight. That's why most of the consensual PvP people do right now is at champ spawns and mini bosses. We're fighting over a reward, and there's a reason to fight. And we have a lot of smaller groups fighting over it, rather than one massive group (or faction.)
 
halygon

halygon

Grandmaster
@KoldesLives - Staff is always open to hearing about current difficulties/issues and what you see as a solution to resolve them. Providing thoughtful suggestions can go a long way.
 
halygon

halygon

Grandmaster
halygon said:
@KoldesLives - Staff is always open to hearing about current difficulties/issues and what you see as a solution to resolve them. Providing thoughtful suggestions can go a long way.
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I should clarify, I don't mean you are not already being thoughtful, but additional suggestions to discuss with the community is always welcome.
 
?

^_^

Grandmaster
We need to be able to set "militia" mob for farming silver and then buying nice items from faction vendors ^_^

Bring back Chaos/Order guilds, and get them pts bonus at champ and 1 additional power scroll roll -> mass action
 
AreYouKidden

AreYouKidden

Grandmaster
Shane said:
It really won't matter what we do, people will either pvp or not pvp- there is no one system or content you can put in that will force people into pvp. It's something we've learned through trial and error.
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I disagree with this statement - well part of it - your right you can't force people into PvP. But unless you have a compelling system that provides incentive (whether through the rewards, or the sheer fun of the system), you aren't going to attract anyone into PvP.

Due to the numerous PvM systems on the shard that I find fulfilling and fun, I'd consider myself a casual PvP'r. I'm not afraid to PvP, I even enjoy it at times. But PvM is rewarding here, and helps to fulfill other goals of mine, where at the end of the day, I gain nothing by PvP'n in the Militias system, in fact I stand to lose gold/resources.

Give me a reason, an incentive, some sort of reward or fulfillment for capturing the gruesome, and you'll snag my attention and other's to come out and PvP. Create a purpose for our bounty points - apply that at a guild level, and you'll entice people to come out and give PvP a shot, because they are the heros who are benefiting their guild. Give me a progression bar like talisman (similar to meta classes), that I can fulfill through different PvP actions, to provide me with account bound PvP aesthetic items, and I'd probably do it, just because it would feel fulfilling.
The way Militias feels right now with 1 gruesome (bounty points for a shroud? or pet rez's?), one reg point that lasts an hour (so you get 1 vendor restock of cheap regs), and 1 champ point bonus when many people don't even like champs, just isn't fun or compelling to me, or many others in our guild. TRIN Guard was active when Militias launched a year ago - it became very dull and boring very quickly, and that really hasn't changed in a year. There is soo much potential in Militias.. We just want to see some of it realized!
 
KoldesLives

KoldesLives

Journeyman
halygon said:
additional suggestions to discuss with the community is always welcome.
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Thanks @halygon! I agree, offering ideas and solutions rather than just a complaint is the way to go. I wanted to keep it broad with “incentives are needed” but I can certainly offer specifics, but that makes for a wall of text. Incoming wall of text:

As a starting point, @AreYouKidden has a thread “the potential of militias” has some amazing ideas, that’s a great resource: https://www.uoforum.com/threads/the-potential-of-militias.99428/

To keep things more simple, just as a starting point, here’s a few ideas:

Incentives, incentives, incentives. There’s very little incentive to capture the reg capture point or the champ one. Capturing the gruesome isn’t that sought after because the points you gain don’t offer much. The discount on regs and the bonus to champ score is negligible. Also, it only lasts for 1 hour so you can only get in a couple of champs by that point. Group/guild incentives and personal incentives are needed. Most of the militia that my guild has done has been capturing the champ capture point. When that 10 minutes is done, our drive to do militia diminishes big time.

More capture points throughout the world in different areas that we don’t currently go to. (Similar to Minax Base having relevancy now.) If there are more capture points, in conjunction, you could make it so that the capture points are held for longer rather than once per hour. Give a stronger reward than just 60 minutes. (You could argue that people will fight less often if the capture point lasts longer than 60 minutes, but I would argue that people will fight more often to capture it if it has a longer duration and is more meaningful impact- similar in mentality to Arch Demon's 4 hour window but high chance of relic drop.)

In addition to bringing us to areas we don’t go to, you can also tie this into existing content that we know is already popular to have different playstyles colliding together. Capture point in the middle of Booty dungeon with the right incentive/reward would bring militia chars and champers together, for example. Chaos ensues.

Instead of capturing a capture point and yielding an immediate result, you could make all capture points essentially the same as the gruesome currently is - allow us to stock up points and allow us to initiate/begin the champ bonus score when we want, rather than the moment the capture point is successfully captured. Instead of using silver to buy an item, use the points to initiate a benefit. Speaking very stereo-typically/generally, the same people who want to go to NPCs to buy their own regs are not the same people who want to fight to capture the reg point, so coordination in a group is needed. This can allow us to fight in militia for however we long we want to go after points, and transition to champing or buying regs when more people are on and can make use of the benefits. More player control.

CTF/Free For All type events can be transitioned into being connected to militia, where different groups can voluntarily choose to fight each other. Essentially, a controlled, predetermined warring of guilds

Leaderboards (addressing a very important egotistical need that most PvPers have!)

Another ego boost - A “I must consider my sins” version for militia kills to see how many kills you have on that char

Decoration or vanity style items that are only able to gained by militia

Thieves in militia being able to steal higher than 10kg (war hammers, axes, etc) making thieves more viable but also upping their risk of getting killed

Remove some of the perks from drops at champs and instead make them be militia rewards – like a champ perk is received if your guild captures all 5-7 capture points in a day.
 
AreYouKidden

AreYouKidden

Grandmaster
KoldesLives said:
Instead of capturing a capture point and yielding an immediate result, you could make all capture points essentially the same as the gruesome currently is - allow us to stock up points and allow us to initiate/begin the champ bonus score when we want, rather than the moment the capture point is successfully captured. Instead of using silver to buy an item, use the points to initiate a benefit. Speaking very stereo-typically/generally, the same people who want to go to NPCs to buy their own regs are not the same people who want to fight to capture the reg point, so coordination in a group is needed. This can allow us to fight in militia for however we long we want to go after points, and transition to champing or buying regs when more people are on and can make use of the benefits. More player control.
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I can not agree with this enough - consider the implications of a one hour timer on a champ point, you get your PvP group in motion, you go out and capture that champ stone, then you go champ for an hour, removing yourself from Militias PvP for an hour? Why is our system designed to get in for an objective, and get out?

By creating a standard gruesome stone for garnering points, you can also implement it in different areas, move it around fairly easily, and when it comes to adding rewards/perks, it's just a matter of adding/removing them from a list of available perks to spend bounty points on. And you could even rotate the available perks on a weekly basis if you wanted to that way. It gives so much more flexibility from a design perspective.
 
?

^_^

Grandmaster
KoldesLives said:
Shoot, I forgot to include that in my list, an extra PS chance would be an amazingly great way to tie in PvP to PvM and offer an incentive and reward worth fighting for!
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Additional PS roll should be only for full risk guilds, that is only Chaos/Order, so that's why they can get a chance for that roll ^_^
 
Phrygian

Phrygian

Master
I disagree that you can't "get" people to PvP. Enticement is real.

Back in the OSI days, all I did was PvP. But, I was very established on the server, had a great big house and gold for days, etc.

Starting out here a while ago, I've been focusing on getting my characters and wealth established. Getting Talismans, trying to get relics, getting gold for a bigger house, etc. etc. I haven't touched PvP here at all, because quite frankly, there's no reason for me to right now. I enjoy it, I have played a ton of PvP focused games, was a very established WoW PvPer, did nothing but PvP back in the old days of UO, etc etc. But right now, I can't be bothered with spending my time PvPing really, I'm still trying to get the needed funds to keep up with the ever increasing price of things on this server (which seems like an incredible task as it is).

However, if PvP offered me some of these incentives, rewards, things to work towards.. That would be a whole new set of content for me to focus on, rather than just trying to grind out gold via Motm/any champs that i can/etc.
 
K A Z

K A Z

Grandmaster
Phrygian said:
Starting out here a while ago, I've been focusing on getting my characters and wealth established. Getting Talismans, trying to get relics, getting gold for a bigger house, etc. etc.
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I lack time to reply to everyone right now and I kinda like the ongoing discussion but I'd like to point this out. This is exactly why we're not gaining any PvPers - because it's not promoted! Most people who come to UOF become a PVMer, strife for a stupid talisman they dont need and eventually quit because they thought UO would be different. What a shame, really!
 
K A Z

K A Z

Grandmaster
... jesus, why can't we edit our posts anymore? Crazy!

so here's another thing:
Maybe consider a re-branding of Militias. I'm not kidding! To me the whole name is not appealing at all. I don't want to be part of a Milita, I'm not a pitchfork fielding plebian. What I mainly loved about Factions was the robes (not these ugly shrouds! real fucking robes!), the war horses, the history that came with it. The titles were much better and cooler, Evil/Hero spiced things up even more as now you had so many little tools to play with.. Not to forget fucking storms idols! Militias feel dead and cheap, and I keep on hearing that. It's also because of the way it is implented! With factions you dedicated a char to a certain faction. Now that char was bound to that faction and getting it out was a fucking hustle. With Militia you can simply leave the Guild and have some nerd add you back.. No investment whatsoever.
 
Phrygian

Phrygian

Master
K A Z said:
... jesus, why can't we edit our posts anymore? Crazy!

so here's another thing:
Maybe consider a re-branding of Militias. I'm not kidding! To me the whole name is not appealing at all. I don't want to be part of a Milita, I'm not a pitchfork fielding plebian. What I mainly loved about Factions was the robes (not these ugly shrouds! real fucking robes!), the war horses, the history that came with it. The titles were much better and cooler, Evil/Hero spiced things up even more as now you had so many little tools to play with.. Not to forget fucking storms idols! Militias feel dead and cheap, and I keep on hearing that. It's also because of the way it is implented! With factions you dedicated a char to a certain faction. Now that char was bound to that faction and getting it out was a fucking hustle. With Militia you can simply leave the Guild and have some nerd add you back.. No investment whatsoever.
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Don't believe you even need to leave the guild. You just click the "leave militia" gump and 20 mins later you're no longer a Militia member.
 
AreYouKidden

AreYouKidden

Grandmaster
The intent of the easy leave was so that you could cap a team at 10 and have players move in and out of the team - instead they moved the cap to 30 I believe it is, and still have that functionality. The reality is, people leaving a team quick, and being re-added quick isn't that big of a deal, considering you can just log on another char if you really aren't into doing militias anymore... 3 accounts, 21 chars... nothing is ever really invested.. .
 
KoldesLives

KoldesLives

Journeyman
@eppy @Shane @halygon When someone gets a moment, can you please respond back if any of the ideas or thoughts here are being considered? Or when any potential improvements to militia will be made? Thanks in advance.
 
drasked

drasked

Grandmaster
Shane said:
Militias isn't finished.
Not sure who said that it was finished (it isn't)... It will always be an on going thing. The best thing about the system is it's more simplified so we have a ton we can add onto it since it's not an already bloated system. Barely anyone actually played and used all of the faction functions.

We could put the best parts of factions in militias. We are open to ideas but when we had factions no one played it and everyone liked the idea of militias more, now we have militias, people want factions. It really won't matter what we do, people will either pvp or not pvp- there is no one system or content you can put in that will force people into pvp. It's something we've learned through trial and error.
Click to expand...

Most of all people want a well rounded system. It's not that faction was so great, it simply had more meat on it than the anorexic system that we call militia.

From my perspective militia has been dead in the water since release, a floating skeleton.
 
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