A Possible Solution to The Problem of PvP

Sorry I guess I did miss that.

O.k. so yea that idea accomplishes a similar task. I threw that idea out in the past and it was received lukewarm by players. My proposal was more in-line with PvM and grinding your way to a roll at tiers of rewards. I'll link the post later if you feel like it's worth reading for an idea or two. I feel like it was a pretty good suggestion and I went into typical nerdy levels of detail...lol

Swayze said:

But my suggestion accomplishes exactly that. Like I said above, anything in life is easier to accomplish in groups.

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Conversely, rewarding group play does not reward the time of the casual, solo PvPer. Instead, they simply won't participate, and we'll be where we already are.

I'm not ready to compare the values of real life with a 20 year old wizard game. The fact is: large, pot-throwing, script-running PvP groups deter casual players from PvPing. There are two ways to fix this: 1) adjust the mechanics, which I think are equally to blame, or 2) provide a reward for the player's time, not for obtaining results that he simply won't be able to obtain.

Which is fine. Once casual PvPers have a place in structured PvP on UOF, UOF will grow. As it stands, it doesn't seem like that's seen as an issue, and I'm good with it. It just won't help UOF, especially in a gaming landscape with hundreds of legitimate options.

You seem to keep flip flopping throughout this entire thread and its really difficult to follow.

You said yourself, the thing everyone wants is powerscrolls and relics for PVP.

I give a suggestion/system we could do to give people that PVP powerscrolls and relics.

You say its good.

Then you say its not good.

Is your question/suggestion answered by this system and the new complaint is there is no place for structured PVP?

Sorry, this whole thread is a total roller coaster and we are flip flopping topics every post.

I like your idea @Swayze... you could do that each month for sure. Don't rule out a PVP champ type battle / spawn ... it could go hand and hand with you're idea.

Swayze said:

You seem to keep flip flopping throughout this entire thread and its really difficult to follow.

You said yourself, the thing everyone wants is powerscrolls and relics for PVP.

I give a suggestion/system we could do to give people that PVP powerscrolls and relics.

You say its good.

Then you say its not good.

Is your question/suggestion answered by this system and the new complaint is there is no place for structured PVP?

Sorry, this whole thread is a total roller coaster and we are flip flopping topics every post.

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I've said, from the very first post, that giving predominantly PvM characters and casual, solo PvPers an incentive to PvP is what's needed. Incentivizing group play does not accomplish this: instead, it continues to reward PvP groups and others simply won't participate.

The suggestion you've made is great for rewarding players that already PvP. That's fine. I bet they'd love more items for playing. If the goal was to "create a system that rewards PvPers who already PvP", your suggestion is perfect.

It does nothing to encourage or reward the casual, solo PvPer, which is exactly what I'm suggesting, and what's needed on UOF. That's also fine. As you've pointed out, the casual, solo PvPer isn't the focus here. If the goal is to "create a system that brings all players to PvP", your suggestion wouldn't work.

I just fail to see why the system I suggested doesn't help the solo PVPer. I am struggling to see how it doesnt.

Casual PVPer, maybe this system doesnt help but if you are a casual player who plays once a week, why should you be rewarded for your few hours a week?

Swayze said:

I just fail to see why the system I suggested doesn't help the solo PVPer. I am struggling to see how it doesnt.

Casual PVPer, maybe this system doesnt help but if you are a casual player who plays once a week, why should you be rewarded for your few hours a week?

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Any system based on kills favors players who play in groups. Right now, that's the PvP scene: a few groups, not much else. Implementing your system essentially gives them more rewards and doesn't provide any benefit whatsoever to the casual PvPer.

Who is saying that the casual PvPer who place once a week should be rewarded as much as another who plays each day? Certainly not me. Then again, if the once a week player PvPs for 5 hours that day, and the each day player PvPs for 20 minutes, then sits in the safe zone or plays his PvM char, his contribution hasn't necessarily been "greater".

If the system is based on overall damage done, it would reflect the time spent by all players, and would balance the dynamic between solo and group play.

Honestly it's extremely hard to make a system that is equally lucrative to both groups and solos, the reality is even in PvM you stand a far better chance for rewards in a group.

I personally believe in a consensual PvP arena (militias) if it is compelling (rewards players). You will get more than just the veteran groups. Solo casuals are never going to compete, solo veterans can, casual group players can compete however... Honestly Militias is group play, some sort of dueling system that provides rewards is solo play...

I love the idea of seasons, but one reward per month, isn't enough to get casuals spending tinr on PvP, there needs to be similar to the boss fights, a daily chance at rewards... And a lottery system can accomplish that..

Roughly copy the boss system.. take all the players over 1200 damage for the day, and put them in a weighted draw for a relic that goes to the bank... 2400 points is double the chance a 1200 point score gets. To limit exploiting, cap player damage gained to 200 per player you damage.

You don't have to guarantee a relic per day, you can make it 50 percent chance for a relic and then goes based on a weighted draw. Skilled, dedicated players have a better chance for rewards...

If you are concerned about lack of participation giving out rewards, put an overall damage cap that needs to be reached for the day to enable the relic reward - like 50,000 overall damage... (I don't know how those numbers look compared to current activity numbers) .

Winstonian said:

Any system based on kills favors players who play in groups. Right now, that's the PvP scene: a few groups, not much else. Implementing your system essentially gives them more rewards and doesn't provide any benefit whatsoever to the casual PvPer.

Who is saying that the casual PvPer who place once a week should be rewarded as much as another who plays each day? Certainly not me. Then again, if the once a week player PvPs for 5 hours that day, and the each day player PvPs for 20 minutes, then sits in the safe zone or plays his PvM char, his contribution hasn't necessarily been "greater".

If the system is based on overall damage done, it would reflect the time spent by all players, and would balance the dynamic between solo and group play.

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But basing it off damage is essentially the same thing. The guy that logs in once a week will have a lower score than the guy that logs in once a day.

Why wouldn't we reward people who play more?

AreYouKidden said:

Honestly it's extremely hard to make a system that is equally lucrative to both groups and solos, the reality is even in PvM you stand a far better chance for rewards in a group.

I personally believe in a consensual PvP arena (militias) if it is compelling (rewards players). You will get more than just the veteran groups. Solo casuals are never going to compete, solo veterans can, casual group players can compete however... Honestly Militias is group play, some sort of dueling system that provides rewards is solo play...

I love the idea of seasons, but one reward per month, isn't enough to get casuals spending tinr on PvP, there needs to be similar to the boss fights, a daily chance at rewards... And a lottery system can accomplish that..

Roughly copy the boss system.. take all the players over 1200 damage for the day, and put them in a weighted draw for a relic that goes to the bank... 2400 points is double the chance a 1200 point score gets. To limit exploiting, cap player damage gained to 200 per player you damage.

You don't have to guarantee a relic per day, you can make it 50 percent chance for a relic and then goes based on a weighted draw. Skilled, dedicated players have a better chance for rewards...

If you are concerned about lack of participation giving out rewards, put an overall damage cap that needs to be reached for the day to enable the relic reward - like 50,000 overall damage... (I don't know how those numbers look compared to current activity numbers) .

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Daily won't happen. We have to think about the economy in that case. "Monthly seasons" works for this and give all players enough time to gain score throughout the month with flexibility on obtaining that (grind hard for the last week, casually play throughout the month, etc).

Honestly though, I don't think PvM rewards are what will drive people to PvP.. part of the equation is the fun of fights, the variety of player opponents... but it's also about the right rewards for PvP'rs..

PvP'rs are competitive, hard working, want ways to put themselves on a pedestal, feed their egos... play off of that! Give them unique deco items as rewards, and/or a method to build scores to buy those rewards, that will get you the most from PvP'rs.. PvP banners, armor stand deco, sword display decos, statues, mounts that show they are a PvP'r - aesthetic armor/gear showing they are a top competitor.. give them scoreboards.. a way to see historical winners..

UOF has a ton of content for PvM'rs, I'm rolling up the 1 year mark, and still am more focused on PvM, because it is fulfilling to me.. you can set a goal, like fully leveling a meta talisman, and see the achievements progress.. what PvP lacks is that. You play for 5 hours in a night.. what did you accomplish? Some fun, but nothing of substance.. that's why as a casual PvP'r, I don't care to waste my time nightly PvP,n...

Swayze, correct me if I'm wrong, but boss altars come up every six hours, (3 times a day with downtime) a 20% chance to drop a relic, there are 3 altar bosses... So call it, 9 - 20% chances a day, rolling up to 1.8 relics dropped daily...

Why can't a 50% chance daily for a PvP'r happen?? Reduce the boss drops to 15% and put 45% to the PvP'rs and you end up with the same number of relics dropped daily.....

AreYouKidden said:

Honestly it's extremely hard to make a system that is equally lucrative to both groups and solos, the reality is even in PvM you stand a far better chance for rewards in a group.

I personally believe in a consensual PvP arena (militias) if it is compelling (rewards players). You will get more than just the veteran groups. Solo casuals are never going to compete, solo veterans can, casual group players can compete however... Honestly Militias is group play, some sort of dueling system that provides rewards is solo play...

I love the idea of seasons, but one reward per month, isn't enough to get casuals spending tinr on PvP, there needs to be similar to the boss fights, a daily chance at rewards... And a lottery system can accomplish that..

Roughly copy the boss system.. take all the players over 1200 damage for the day, and put them in a weighted draw for a relic that goes to the bank... 2400 points is double the chance a 1200 point score gets. To limit exploiting, cap player damage gained to 200 per player you damage.

You don't have to guarantee a relic per day, you can make it 50 percent chance for a relic and then goes based on a weighted draw. Skilled, dedicated players have a better chance for rewards...

If you are concerned about lack of participation giving out rewards, put an overall damage cap that needs to be reached for the day to enable the relic reward - like 50,000 overall damage... (I don't know how those numbers look compared to current activity numbers) .

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If you allow non Militia players to party and fight as a group... you'll get those solo casual players to compete (or try) the same way they do at the Brit Bridge.

Just my option here, this thread does seem to flip from rewarding the casual solo pvper to addressing the evil, client tweaked, hardcore group pvp vets. I really couldn’t tell if you were trolling or not for the first few pages. Accepting the gist of what your trying to achieve does seem to be to the benefit of the portion of the player group your championing, my suggestion here would be to be mindful of listing the definitive outcomes of any of these theoretical changes. “..pvp would grow significantly, and uof as a whole would follow suit.” Etc. You lost me along the way a few times, but I admire your tenacity.

It would seem like the first and smartest common ground to find would be that ‘any change that may be implemented, as a result of healthy theoretical discussion, would need to be monitored closely for unforeseen negative consequences’. Uo being such a complex, intertwined sandbox and all.
If the server population could be significantly increased by way of only promoting and rewarding casual solo pvp, I think it’s fair to say years of effort by the developers, and the shard owners background and brainchild of marketing and promotion, this would have been stumbled upon. Of course great good can still come from fresh eyes and perspectives.

So if the goals are:

Incentivise pvp for casual solo player.
Balance the system (as best as possible) to give them a chance vs hardcore group pvp vets of achieving incentives
Limit the exploitability of these changes
Limit the amount of extra manual involvement for staff(if it proves successful it needs to be scalable without needing 10 more staff)

With increases in casual solo pvp participation/pvmers transitioning to pvp play and server growth as the metrics of success.


My suggested system would be along the lines of:

Utilise one of the pits at the docks (or replicate the pits concept) for a ongoing dedicated pvp competiton.
Give it a weighted scoring system so all competitors receive points, players killing high k/d ratio players get bonus points, accounts less than a month old or w/e get bonus points, matches lasting longer than x get a couple bonus points. Something along those lines.
Promote it on the message of the day, and promote the score gump command for players to monitor
Promote a dedicated forum thread with voting poll for playerbase to choose their favourite champ, favourite match w/e
All new entrants get some sort of initial aesthetic pixel join prize (doesn’t need to be big, make it char bound if it’s flashy)
Randomise matches as best as possible, ie filter same guilds, k/d rankings etc
Repurpose the uo forever deathcam/bot to provide 24/7 coverage
Record coverage and regularly push to YouTube videos
Have the uo forever disco bot regularly post the link in disco general channel

A more contentious suggestion would be to open the field to all build types/equipment/pets. Yes some ppl will roll with cheesy shit, but the diversity and increased options would make it a lot more interesting for spectators(likely the people your trying to convince to participate), and open new casual pvpers to the truth of what they will face in uof pvp.
Maybe pair tamers only with tamers or something.

Overlay rewards system on this. Perhaps daily winner(s) of random x level prize(s), (the winner randomly drawn from the top 5 points scorers for the day). End of month, weekly, whatever staff thinks would work. Add a high end prize monthly to random contestant, most voted on, fan favourite etc (your never going to get a rewards system that caters totally to micro casual players, nor should it. With the desired metrics, rewards should always skew to those who participate the most)

A sandbox within a sandbox, is the only way your going to get the bulk of your goals/constraints addressed. Sweeping changes to the entire uof pvp mechanics is not a practical solution. This is not to say with such a transparent window into an ongoing pvp competiton that ideas for mechanics tweaks or balances might not be a possible outcome.

I haven't read through all this but I'd just like to say, there isn't a lot wrong with PvP, I believe its in a good form now - booming as Bobby would say(he's right btw) always fights to be had everyday whether it be pking/looking for pks as blues/playing militias. Just gotta go out and find it. Not entirely sure why there should be more rewards to it - if you want rewards, give fighting for objectives a go

@Vorax what objectives? What purpose to the objectives? Give me objectives and incentives towards those objectives, to pull me out of my PvM shell and I'm there. I suspect that'd be true of many people..

With PvM due to meta paths, it feels like progression... With most goals, it requires gold or PvM to fulfil those goals, and you can feel the fulfillment.

What is fulfilling about PvP as it is currently? Why does a PvM'r want to come PvP?

AreYouKidden said:

@Vorax ..Why does a PvM'r want to come PvP?

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Swayze said:

But basing it off damage is essentially the same thing. The guy that logs in once a week will have a lower score than the guy that logs in once a day.

Why wouldn't we reward people who play more?

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I'm confused. When have I been against rewarding people who play more?

In a game like this, void of classes, how active one is in PvP can often be tied to the overall damage they deal. The big difference between basing it off of damage done and kills is that, for damage done, a solo PvPer can still place relatively well on a leaderboard despite potentially not killing anyone. As it relates to kills, in a 5v1, that 1 is as 'active' as those 5, yet wont see any (potential) reward for his time.

Now, that's not necessarily an issue, and that has been my point all along. If that's the way that UOF wants it to be, that's fine, but it wont pull casual players into PvP, and that should be something the staff wants.

@Sparhawk: sleep time. A lot of good in your post that I'll respond to in the morning.

Vorax said:

I haven't read through all this but I'd just like to say, there isn't a lot wrong with PvP, I believe its in a good form now - booming as Bobby would say(he's right btw) always fights to be had everyday whether it be pking/looking for pks as blues/playing militias. Just gotta go out and find it. Not entirely sure why there should be more rewards to it - if you want rewards, give fighting for objectives a go

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This was only pertaining to structured PvP. There are absolutely plenty of reds out there. Right now, there's no place for the solo PvPer in structured PvP.

Again, this suggestion isn't something I need. I'll either do some PvM nonsense or play one of the hundreds of other games out there. Looking at things, I know that I'd get far more involved in structured PvP if the system didn't cater to the groups, and I'm not the only one out there.